atering a Smith and Wesson to make a good gun out of it
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I have been gone for some time. Busy working on my Smith and Wesson 629 Classic.. Good gun as it came from the factory, but the more i saw, the more I wanted to choke Smith and Wesson. I will list the problems, and the correctons, in case anyone wasts to do it for themselves, or have a pistolsmith fix it for them.
1. The headspace is way too much for the 44 magnum round. as usual, less is always best. Mine was at 15 thou. This means a 15 thousanths guage would go behing a round and the breech area. My old 32020 Smith was 4 thou. My old 38 special was 5 thou. So there was a problem. This causes endshake to form, as the sylinder has to take the forces of firing on the ratchet area, rather than on the carridge rim helping to support it as it would in a zero headspaceing situation.
2 the cylinder was not bearing squarly on the rear of the frame area. The ratchet was only leaving a mark on the bottom area on the frame cut out for it. Light could be seen between the top of the ratchet area and the frame.
3 The cylinder was supported only by the youke in the rear end, not on the front also. This contributes to endshake problems also.
4. The barrel was smaller in the rear, by the forcing cone, than in the rest of it. This is because of Smith and Wesson eliminating the Pined barrels, and instead tapering the frame threads to make the barrel stay in place. His squezes the rear of the barrel down a few thou. Bad for accuracy.
4 the bolt was a poor fit in the cylinder and frame holes.
This is how I repaired it, (some of the work is still bing done, sas funds allow)
I removed material from the rear of the frame, with a scraper and magic marker, until I got total contacft with the ratchet assy against the frame. This took many hours, one scrape at a time. Then I put in a fired cartridge, primer removed, and continued to scrape until I had a 0 headspacing sinturation. I put the end shake bushing sold by Brownells in the cylinder to fit between yoke and read inside of cylinder. This gave me now a 17 thou cylineder gap. Not good. but the cyliner feels kike it is on ball barings when you pull the hammer or squeeze the trigger.
I made a coller to go in front of the cylinder, to put the forces of firing on the yoke both in the front and rear. This will go a long way to insure a tight gun under heavy loads.
I removed the barrel, and took enough material from the rear shank surface to enable to do one extra turn in. Then I removed enough material from the forcing cone area to give me a 2 thou cylinder gap. I had to also remove material from the exractor rod and inside rod, for front end lockup.
I got a frame tap from Brownells for the N frame Smith and Wesson, and trued the frame thread area. Then I fit the barrel, and using an old Smith for measurments, drilled and pined the barrel into place. Now the barrel is a consistant .430 from back to front. Oh, I also ran a Brownells forcing cone reamer in the barrel, to true the forcing ccne where I had removed material.
I put a Power Custom oversized bolt in. and what a difference it made!. Cylinder locks up like a bank vualt. No movment at all, front, back left or right.
Oh I also ran a sharp tool over the grooves in the back of the grip frome, sharpening the tops of the grooves, for a better tactile feeling on my hand and less sliking around. I also sharpend the hammer checkering with a good file. Now my thumb cannot slip from the hammer in single action. It feels like the hammer is coking is self actually.
What I want to do next.
Install a 4th screw on the frame. Like a real Smith has. This is for frame flexing, as the frame has a tendancy to flex under firing in the sideplate area withouot it. The old timers knew this, but the bean counters got rid of it. Will take some work with a milling machine, drill, and tap.
Ivory grips with steers head on right side. Thes fit the hand best, and help in recoil, as only desert ironwood s as dense as ivory,That is heavy for its size, aand still looks gook to the eye. My use Desert Ironwood, as Ivory my be out of the question price wise. Right now I have factory wood grips, cocobolo I think. They work well. The Rubber ones are POS.
Lets here your input into this. Yes I know I can never return it to Smith for warranty work, but I should never have to.
Hey Gunny, Chris here, sounds like you have been busy but where are the pictures? Did you take any before pictures by chance? I think we all would enjoy seeing what it looks like. Keep on going Gunny, sounds like a swell piece of gun art now.
I am having pics taken by a professinal photogrpher friend of mine. Will have them done when I put on the grips, and maybe have the frame gone over with a presision grinder, to eliminate the buffer markes done by Smith and Wesson. What a bunch of clods. They charge top dollar, and havee jack leg gunsmiths working for them. That is what you get for minimum wqage I guess. I am sure they pay as least as they can for employees. Look kown the barrel of a sSmith some time, on the outside. see all the waviness. That is from the milling cutter that was not run right. Then look at the frame. see all the dips around the trigger guard form the power buffer. You do niot see that on a Python,, or a Freedom Arms. They are done right, for people that want what they pay for. If you ever get the chance to look at a Korth, do it. That is prefecton in a revolver. The price is high, but it is made RIGHT.
Now Gunsmith, what would poor old Elmer have thought about "his" S&W 44 after reading your report????? Jamesfromjersey
PS go back to the "Would Elmer have been pleased " post to read what he had to say about the Redhawk. Looks like he answered my question....
James from Jersy, glad to corrospond to you. Elmer would have been very happy with his Smiths, as they were all 5 screws, and the cost savings pennypinchers had not taake n over the company. Just a thought, When has Smith and wesson ADDED a cachining step to the manufacture of any pon there guns sisnce 1909 They had the perfect gun, the Triple lock, or New Century. The penny pinchers then eliminated the crane lock in a few years, to boost profits. Then they eliminated the 5 screws, Went to 4 and then 3. Would have 2 if they could make it work. They are pushing stainless guns, as it elininates the blueing tanks and chemicals. Then thay eliminated the hammer held fining pin, and are telling us that the new MIM parts are better than the old case hardened parts, and wear just as long. Don' P-ss on me and tll me it is raining. If it was better, why can they not case harden it? Because it will fall apart that is why. The hammers, triggers, ect are being made of high tech pot metal. They say with tooling wear the new warts are better, as tolling wear does not affwect it. I belive the old workmen new how to sharpen there own tools, and hold a very tight tolerance on the machining. Unlike the computer made, cnc produced, Politically correct employee, parts that are being foisted oupon us today. All I did on my gun was try to return it to the past glory days of Smith and Wesson. Wnen every gun you purchase was a work of art, formed in metal and WOOD. Even the boxes were special then, not the Plastic POS that they give yus now. Look at a black boz Smith and Wesson 44 mag. Even the box, The tools that they encluded, the hang tags, instruction manual, all had CLASS. All were first class. So to go back to the original question, Elmer loved the guns he had, and would have been very upset, if just in private, over the current direction of the company.
Actually, I do agree with you Gunny. I think its kinda bad when a gunwriter gives a report about the great new gun he has been given by a major manufacturer. Its a very positive report then, a year later the same gun goes to a custom shop that does top end work to have it re-worked so the same writer can have a good gun. Boy, I better get off the soap box, Santas coming and I got lights to put up.
Hey Gunny, When you speak of quality control, are you referring at all about your typing or just trying to be like Elmer? (sorry, had to do it)
You are very astute. I would not have noticed that similarity with the typing, but then I'm old and slow now... Chris
Gunney, Old Smiths = YES New Smiths+ NO
Gunsmith, After reaing all of the things that S&W has eliminated over the years what do you think it would cost , in todays market, for a new triple lock ???
Manufacturing today is almost a complete 180 from the classic times, which by any measure, pretty much ended in the 1960's.
Up until automation and cost cutting carried the day, manufacturing was accomplished by qualified craftsmen/women. This is true if we are talking clothes, guitars, or guns. Sure, things were mass produced, and the technical aspects of this were all done by highly skilled labor.
From the 1960's on, word of the day was automation, and the effort of manufacturing was to remove skilled, and highly paid labor from the production process.
It took a while, but with today's computer driven robots, manufacturers-including gun makers are highly automated. There literally is no one at the helm. Elimination of skilled labor positions has enabled the barons of industry to dumb things down to the point that third world slave labor can now provide most of the handwork needed, so they get their pet politicians to pass various laws, usually sold to us as "free trade", and ship our jobs overseas.
Those factories that remain have to compete with dirt cheap third world products. So Taurus can sell you a 44 mag sixgun for $500-now what is gonna happen to S&W? Sure, those discerning folks who know quality will still go American, but the average Joe, who knows nothing about anything, reads all the gun rag hype and buys the import. There are way more Joes than Discerning customers, so S&W is forced to streamline their efforts, and deliver a cheaper gun.
Now, they won't TELL YOU they are doing this, but this is the reality of so called "competition" today-it results in cheaper, less sophisticated, less accomplished, poorer quality products.
Gun writers will tell you that modern guns are made from better steels and are generally more accurate than guns from the skilled labor era. Some will go even further and claim that tolerances are better than before as well. I won't say they are outright lying, but I will say they are simplifying the argument to the point of dismissing some pretty important facts.
Gunsmith points out here exactly what those dismissed facts are. He is lucky to be able to resurrect from today's S&W one that stands happily in the bloodline. Those of us with fewer skills, fewer tools, and no place to work are not so fortunate. Already, most of the skills learned the hard way over generations are disappearing. Sad truth is, most tv saturated average Joes won't even realize what they've lost.
Pre WWII....
James, those are great old ads, would be nice to have a calender or something with a whole bunch of those, like they used to have in the "Good Old Days". I really liked the old Winchester ad showing a hunter on a ledge facing down a big griz with his Winchester. Chris
Number one. I am not trying to imitate Elmer. maybe similar minds do things similar ways. HA HA . It would work to cheapen the gun if the price wen down in the mean time. BUt the price continues to go up. Labor is less, Steel costs about the same, and the electic bill has not risin that much. For what they are asking, a Triple lock at a resonable profit marghin, with modern machining would be about 400. But they are asking 1000 for a 629 Classic. A total POS. 2 boxes of full house Buffalo Cartridges, or Double Tap, and it will be out of headspace, out of time, and may have a cracked forcing cone from sizing down the bullets innto the reduced diameter barrel.
If anyone wants to get one done right. give me a call. Al can give you the contact info. Not cheap, but fair. outstanding test target included , or the job will be free.
Hope you have a good year, there's still lots of " S&W's " out there that need help...... Chris
...get in line!
Thought you knew my old S&W 32 doesn't need any work. Don't own any new ones that would need help, I usuually buy Colts when I have the chance. Chris
Somebody is a little uppity aren't they?
What is "atering" I have checked all my gun books and can't find it. Should I "ater" any of mine?
Boy, I'm a gonna get in trouble now! Just watched a repeat of a show about Smith & Wesson making the new Governor 410-45-45 ACP handgun. Their answer to the Taurus Judge. The show repeatedly stated that their state of the art machines just about did away with any hand fitting because the tolerances are held so close they make the assembly almost too easy. They even boast that their new revolvers are so good they are far and away better than any of the old guns they ever made. Tight tolerances, top notch maching, little or no hand fitting, sounds like they make some wonderful revolvers Gunsmith! Chris
Its all about sales, Chris.
The gun rags are universal in echoeing this mantra-CNC is best-hand fitting is worst! Of course, these are the same rags that drool over the work of smiths who create butter smooth actions, wonderful accuracy, and all the other things that the factory should have done in the first place. How, exactly do these talented men accoplish such wonders? UH, gee-they HAND FIT!
No one ever said it had to make any sense!
I think atering my 629 classic might be in the cards. Like to see it shoot groups comparable to my FA. Gunny is waiting on a couple of special tools to finish practicing on his and then he says he'll start practicing on mine.
As far as "The Governator", there are plenty of choices in the safe right now I'd pick for an outing long before I'd consider one o' them. IMAO, it's probably not a good 410, not a great 45 Colt, and a "why" in the 45ACP column. so by what logic does 3 not so great guns roll into one good one?
The point was not the particular gun but the S&W claims on how great their new manufacturing is. I am just being argumentative to get you "atering" 'Smith' boys going..... Chris
You guys are something else. Why do you buy cheap guns that need additional work? Perhaps if you all....you too Chris, followed my lead and purchased fine guns from the start you'd actually save money in the long run. And thats why nothing will come between me and my Kel-Tec's and Taurus's. Nothing better than a 9mm! Name withheld
Taurus comes to mind, I have heard that their quality is right up there with the 'new' S&W guns. Chris and I ain't afeered to use my name Anonymous....
Why don't you just buy a gun with the grips you like? Or the sights? If we want to ater our S&W's is that so horrible? We all can't afford top o the line Taurusesseses.
Emk's new avatar
Happy New Year. I wish Elmer was with us. Thank you Chris, I will be happy to fix any Smith that comes my way. I was looking at my Ruger Blackhawk. As loose a goose as it comes. Needs recrowned, forcing cone cut,Barrel pinned,over sized bolt and hand installed, Cylinder gap closed, with endshake removed without the "Power washer"fix. For all you that do not know what that is, Ron Power makes stainless washers in 2 and 4 thaou thickness to take up endshake. Does nothing for headspaceing, or excessive cylinder gap that is made with it though. And the little washers bend and deform with the battering from firing the 44 mag. I had to make my own from 16 thou. metal, and fit it to the cylinder. That and the fitting on the front of the cylinder took care of the problem. The Ruger will get the new cylinder insert job done when business gets good.
Oh, I fitted my 629 with a pin in the trigger spring to eliminate over travel. Kind of like the factory job, but make is so it does not rattle around like the factory one did. Now when the trigger breaks, the trigger stops. Right now.
Smith saying they are making the beest guns thay ever made should be a libelous statement. The best gun they ever made was the "Hand Ejector, Model of 1907, Heavy frame." Other wise known as the New Century, or Triple Lock. Every thing after that was an exercize in profit making. Period. Case Closed.
or ater????.... I was really hoping I wasn't going to be taken seriously. I will confess that I did end up with a Taurus that some odd ball had a total rework done on. Can you imagine being the smith that had that guy come in and say"trick her out, she's a beaut"? I have put a few clips through it and it shoots o.k. but in the end its still a taurus. I took it because of money owed on work I did for him and am into it for about 100 bucks with a case of ammo and a few other odds and ends. The part I felt bad about was he was in tears as he handed it to me. I said as soon as he had the cash the gun was his. Last I heard the wife left him for his irrational thinking? Other than that my next lowest in the food chain is a Great Western "Texas Marshall" in 22 cal.....another trade. I have a few Smith's maybe if the atering isn't too expensive???? Let me toss out a question here, what would it take to build a real good revolver that didn't need any perfecting to shoot well or feel good? Why should the gun enthusiast have to buy a gun then take it to a smith so its then a quality gun? Doesn't make sense, any investors out there? What do you guys think the finished price would be for a small company to do what we are talking about? I have no idea what would go into this as far as production cost, liability and all the other hidden dollars. Just a curious question. I have to go as my new book just came, its about building a double rifle on a shotgun action, a perfect do it yerself novice project.........any offers for help?
Just started reading an article about Marlin's move to N.Y. And it says much of the tooling has been replaced with the far superior CNC machines which will yield a far better product. Are you "atering" guys just whiners? I want a far superior CNC machine I'm sure they come in a "taxidermy model" right?
If I were you I would immediately alter all my opinions to conform with whatever any gunwriter says. You should also make your double rifle with plugs welded into the muzzles-will be a hell of a lot safer, and then be sure to inform the authorities that you are holding another man's treasure, without having done the yellow form. After all this, you will be fully set to worship at the cnc machine as any true believer should.
EMK
'while back I built .38 special on a rossi 12 gauge for a friend, just turned .38 barrel to fit and made up a new extractor. Bonded it in with JB at his request.
You should enjoy this, just don't use anything to high in pressure.
ace
The comments I made about CNC's and the double rifle thing were for humor. I'm not a fan of the new ways at all. And agree with most all the comments made about the writers and hand fitting. I was having fun last night with my comments and can't believe that I was taken seriously. However as far as JB Weld goes, I used it for the first time in my life and the stuff works.......now watch, someone will think I used it on a gun. When I used it to repair a CNC machine! Then I used the rest for the plugs I was told to put in the muzzles of my double rifle.....some sad people out there huh? put some pics of that 38 on here.
Howdy back to you.
sorry but don't have pics and buddy traded the thing off already.
I do have a savage 311 that is not being used, hhmmm, wonder what round would be good in that?
As for the newer smiths, the last one I got, 5 or 7 years ago, shore didn't fit like my chief(1966) or and old 4 screw I got a couple years ago.
later, ace
Don, maybe he meant corks and not plugs! I can see that double 470 of yours making a hell of a pop gun! But wait, wasn't that made quite a while ago by some old English company, can't be much good if it wasn't made on a CNC machine. Chris
Chris, Your right. It was made in Holland. I'm confused, Holland and Holland is where it was made. And it must have been for the dutch prince because it says "Royal" on it. Too heavy for a pop gun though. Thinking about trading it off you interested?
I have done that double rifle thing. What a pain in the ... a friend of mine is amking one in 308 on a Stevens 311 action.For real. Has a lot tyed up in it already, I loaned him my reamers, and fit the action to the barrels. Regulating will be interesting. Then the custom forend has to be made. He is keeping a 12 guage barrel set as well. I built double rigles in 450 no.s nitro express, 12 guage rifled 3 inch, 8 mm mauser rimmed, and 45/70. The most worth while was the 45/70 with 500 grain loads.
My advise. read the book, learn about building them, and using them, and put the book away. Double rifles are an expensive,time consuming project that will never satisfy completly. Always tinkering with them for reliability,and or accuracy.
If you build one, use one of the new bake on finishes. This will hide the solder problems on the ribs, where the blueing will not take. And fit the sights before you solder on the top rib.
Mornin' Gunsmith, I was kidding about the book, I have seen it and wondered about it but was joking along with my CNC comments. I don't have the experience or the patience and equipment for that type of a project. On that same subject though, I read about some GM employees that were going to build a double all CNC'd ofcourse and the barrels were to be milled out of one piece of metal, they thought there would be no regulating necessary. I think that ship sunk before it left the dock. Then we could stir up the pot by commenting about stainless doubles and synthetic stocks? That Ruger Blackhawk that you say is real loose, how many rounds caused this? Did you own it from new? just wundrin'
A lot of rounds went though it. Heavy loads. But a 357 is light in the recoil area, and a good gun should not loosen for anything, especially in 357. I am going to rebarrel it, install a new cylinder, and make a 44 special out of it. I will buy another 357 when I can, probably an N frame Smith, old model. A model 27 or 28 will do nicely.
Handling my REAL SMITH at the local gun show was a real eye opener for many of the people that checked it out. The collectors claim I ruined a collectable Smith (hell thay make 629 Classics everyday). Many wanted to buy it, and my Ruger Old Army with the conversion cylinder and Jay Scott Ivory grips. I was offered 1200 for the Ruger Old Army. I will not sell it, as it was a gift from my son, the grips were a gift from a friend, and the cylinder was a Christmas present from my Sister. All the work fitting it up is mine though.
I will have pics of it when I have the pics made of the Smith.
Received the Smith back Thursday in time to take it to the shoot June 2nd. I'll do a write-up on it when I get a sec but for now I'll just say it fits tight, action is very smooth, and was as accurate (in my hands) as my F/A, both shooting similar loads at 150 yards. brief summary of work done:
Hammer shim set
Trigger shim set
Fitted oversized pawl
Fitted oversized cylinder stop
Barrel removed, forcing cone re-cut to 11 deg.
Barrel crown recessed and re-cut to 89 deg.
Cylinder set to .060 headspace
Barrel set in and matched to cylinder .002 forcing cone gap, +- .0005
Cylinder base pin shortened to match new barrel position
Barrel pinned
Probably missing a couple of other things, Gunsmith can fill us in if he cares to.
Smoothed and times action, installed custom make cylinder shim kit, and set headspace to 60 thou. fit frame and cylinder fit so that the cylinder is 100 percent in contact with the frame at the center ring on the star, fit new Ahern grips. Sharpend checkering on hammer, backstrap,forestrap,thumb cylinder release. Lapped the barrel, opened the cylinder up to 431 diameter on both cylinders, Timed both cylinders and fit the cranes to the gun to match the frame, and timing. Double action pull is 10 pounds, and single action is 3 pounds. Barrel fitted to exact center, with rear sight centered, and adjusting screw aligned with the other screws, at 25 yards. Then the barrel is pinned in place. All the screws are aligned so that if the screws come loose, you can see it instantly and tighten. Smiths all loosen with use. I reccomend blue locktite on the screws, but let the costomers do that on there own. Same with the ejector rod.
Just figured out how to make a Smith and Wesson Triple Lock. Need to use Electrical Discharge Machining. The mechanisim is so simple it is frightning. Why Smith will not do it is totally beond me. With modern machining methods, it is a simple operation.And they could have the ULTIMATE HANDGUN. Imagine a Triple Lock with the Classic lockwork, in bright Stainless, Round butt,5 inch barrel, in 44 Magnum. That would be the Elmer Keith Memorial Handgun.
Ran a few loads through the atered S&W, outdoor 50 yards shooting from a bench with the gun unsupported except for contact where my hands rested on the bench. Took 2 loads with me, 250 gr Keith over a full case of H110, and 265 gr Hornady Interlock FP, a bullet used mostly in the .444 but a good choice for the .44 as well, again over a full case of H110. Disadvantage of the H110 is it can't be downloaded, like the 2400 and the 4227, but IMAO H110 is a great heavy bullet magnum powder when the case is filled right to the point of contact with the base of the bullet. Didn't get a chance to take photos, someone taped their targets over mine and replaced the stand while I was loading up the rig. Anyway, at 50 yards, started with the 250 gr Keiths, first group was about 3+"/ 6 shots, 4" left and 4" high. Adjusting the rear sight to the right and firing 3 shot groups gun maintained 2" minus groups until centered over the bull. Didn't lower the rear as it is set all the way down. Best group was a little under 2 with 2 holes overlapping. Checked for leading, looked real clean. Then started with the Hornady's, two groups with 2 overlapping holes and a 3rd close, couple more 2" groups, pretty similar to the lead bullets.
Observations:
Forcing cone to cylinder clearance completly dissapears after about 50 rounds, feels a little tight but operates properly. Probably more to do with carbon/ lead then heat.
Double action a little heaver then I like but nice and smooth, no staging spot prior to hammer dropping
Single action breaks crisp with almost unmeasurable force. Almost to nice for me
Very comfortable shooter with full blow loads
glad you fired it. Now I can rest easy. You need to fire it at 100 yards and report. Try bullets sized at 432. Groups should go down. Which cylinder did you use?. The blued one should shoot the same as the stainless one. Is there any motion of the cylinder for endshake? Just always checking on my work. How are the Ahern grips. They really distribute the recoil over a larger area of your palm, and reduce felt recoil. I am thinking about a set of Hogue wooden grips for mine, but I cannot find a peice of Ironwood thick enough for the job. Everyone cuts it for 1911 grips, and knives.
get this front sight. It will lower your POI. Made for 50 yard shooting. http://www.midwayusa.com/product/111304/smith-and-wesson-patridge-sight-s-and-w-629-50-meters-magna-classics
midway link not working today, I'll try later
is the link working for you know? It works fine from here. And you can put the gold bars on it for long range shooting.
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