Let's Talk S&W

I've had a few Smiths, have a couple now, what does one look for to determine quality, besides fitting and pinned barrel, or more precisely, lack of quality?? 

I'm thinking that finish and attention to small details are what usually go first when a company tries to get more for the product with less input. Chris

Look for the straightness of the finish on the barrel and frame. Look for gouged out areas around the trigger guard, where some idiot put a power buffer to it at the factory, and did not know how to use it. Look down the sides of the barrel, close up from front to back,Unloaded naturally. There should be no waviness to the metal. Look in the cylinder window. Any machining marks shuld have been removed, leaving a uniform finish all the way around. Look for the headspace. The distance between the rear of the breech face, and the rim of a cartridge should be .009 or less. The cylider gap on a good quality gun should be .003 to .006. Any more, send it back to the factory. The cylinder mouths should be on a 357 .358, to .359. The 44 should be 430 to .431. The barrel groove diameter should be on a 357  .357.  On a 44 .43o, to .431. The cylinder should always be 1 to 2 thou. larger than the barrel.
The grips should fill the hands well, with no over lapping of the wood to the frame.  The gun should have no endshake, or excessive side to side motion. It should lock up completley when the trigger si pulled, even with resistanc from your hand on the cylinder.
THis is a good way to tell if a gun is quality. Easy to say, but hard to find these days.
 

How do you rank the Colt python (Vintage, not recent) against any comparable Smith model? Chris

I will stick my 2 cents worth in this one. I have had a couple of Pythons over the years and handled some tuned by Moran who was considered one of if not the best Python tuner around. The Python actions  were all incredible but always felt like they had a longer pull than a Smith. A few years ago I bought an older Python from a friend and resold as  side by side I preferred the action on my Smith 27-2. Again the Smith seemed to have a faster, shorter   trigger pull.  

I only buy the older Smiths as I do not want a flimsy lock mechanism on a handgun or any gun for that matter and I do not like MIM parts. 

Len, thanks for that insight from a S&W user. My trouble was never having a Smith to compare with my Python. I shot a Smith, don't even remember the model, back in the late sixties with a shooting buddy and proceeded to buy a used 357 Ruger which had been very abused, to say the least, but I was a novice and didn't know better. I quickly returned it to the shop and said I wanted a "good" 357 and was handed a Python. I never looked back. I tend to shoot single action a lot so the trigger pull on double action never was an issue. I suppose I wouldn't know what a shorter pull is like until I shoot a Smith. I guess I was wondering about quality of workmanship etc also. My Python is a beauty as far as mechanics go. Chris

Chris the Python is a really well finished gun and the action is a mechanical marvel. In truth there were a few reasons I sold the Python none of which had to do with quality. 
I like larger caliber handguns so I only wanted one 357.
The Python grip was a bit wide for me and my pistol smooth could not correct this unless he took metal off of the grip frame. I did not want to modify a $1,000.00 gun.
Then as I pointed out the Smith just seemed to function faster double action. 
If I had unlimited resources a Python would reside in my safe it is in my opinion one of the greatest gun of the 20th and so far the 21st century.

...double action does seem superior to Rugers and Colts, I also like the cylinder release better as well. Seems like a more natural activation.  Seems like  the shooting sports that require fast fire/unload/ re-load are pretty much dominated by S&W's

My uncle , who almost won at Camp Perry in the 1950-s, loves the Smith and Wesson, and hates the Colt. sys the Colt tacks on the double action pull. I never have gottenn to his level of copentance, but know better than to say he is wrong. The Smith after a certain date, has a speed lock, and the Colts do not. This was for target shooting, as the faster lock time improved scores. Ed McGivern fired all his speed records with the old style, Keith says the long action is smoother, and better for trigger pull, when firing fast. I can;t shoot that fast, not that I am not trying every day to speed things up. 1 second is my best time for 6 shots. No where neer Ed McGivern and Elmer Keith.
Just read the chapter on the 44 triple lock, in John Taffins book. The people at Smith and Wesson need to read that one.
a side note. Have a Taurus 44 here, that was my late father in laws. The cylinder gap is 3 thou., the headspace is 7 thou, and the cylinder locks up like a bank vualt. I just shot a 1 hole group at 25 yards with it, using Elmers bullet and 7.5 grains of Unique. The cylinder throats are a little short, but other than that, it is a fine gun. I wish my Smith was as tight as that one. Kind of ignored it for a long time. Still don't care for the ports on the barrel, but will accept them as an evel that I have to get used to. What a pain to clean. S--t on the sides of the front sight blade. Nasty.

Gunny, I thought you were down on Taurus products after you downplayed the "Judge" as being a piece of junk. Does this mean that some Taurus output is on the same level of quality as some of the Smiths? I think I need some side by side comparisons from you so I know what's what...Also, since I'm a Colt man from the start, I have to defend my Python. I very seldom shoot rapid fire, since I can barely shoot slow fire, but when I have tried it with my Python it was smooth as silk. Now I admit I have never shot a Smith very much, let alone a finely tuned one, but I think my Python could get the job done considering it doesn't need any additional tuning, it was fairly well finely tuned when it left Colt back in the 60's. But then, I could be wrong.... Yours Truly, Chris

Not to get in the middle of a feud but I thought a Taurus was a ford

But the afore mentioned company is Taurus International and they make firearms. They are a subsidiary of Forjas Taurus from Brazil. They opened the Miami branch to serve the U.S.A for firearms sales and distribution. They also have the rights to Rossi if I am not mistaken and at one time the former owner of S&W (the conglomerate Bangor Punta) owned a huge share of Taurus but later sold it to the present owners......It's OK to jump in, I love to debate Gunny because he always has an opine on every thing I ask about. In case you haven't noticed, I'm kind of a trouble maker sometimes with certain topics and I do on occasion stick my foot in my mouth when I get too wound up on some things. But, it is a great way to make new friends! Chris 

Chris,
It was my attempt at being sarcastic. The only handguns I think are worth owning are older  Smiths, Colts, some old Rugers and Freedom Arms they are also the only ones I feel are worth spending money customizing.  Not trying to start an argument but I would rather have one really good gun than two that are just so so. I also think all guns should be blued and a handgun should be handy not the size of a carbine not real crazy about optics on a handgun although I have to admit they make it a longer and more accurate weapon.  But you will find I am not real opinionated.

If I can ever figure out how to post photos I will post a custom Smith.

 But I had to get the part of S&W owning part of Taurus so Gunny could argue with me about how Taurus copied S&W guns way back when...  I, too, only like to do stuff with worthwhile guns. I fell in love with Colts a long time back and even though they have had some ups and downs I still like them.... I would probably buy a New Frontier .44 Special if I could just to have one.. even if I had to have a lot of work done to make it a class shooter. I just like those Colts.  I wouldn't turn away a good Smith but I don't see one in my future any time soon. Chris

Chris,
I had  a chance to handle the New Frontier at the NRA convention if its an accurate example of their production model its going to be a winner. The action locked up tight great trigger the finish was nice on par with my 3rd generation. The cost will probably be as much or more than the 3rd generation I have no idea if they are throated better than the old guns.

I have a third generation 45 colt that wears a 357 cylinder chambered and throated correctly as well as one piece ivory grips it is a fabulous gun. I have another one in 44 special converted to a Keith # 5. If I were you I would look for a deal on a 3rd generation they are out every once in awhile 

Len: I do have a 45 and the throats are large, 453-454 when I measured them, but it shoots good enough for what I do so I don't worry about it. What I was dreaming about would be a short barreled 44Special New Frontier. But you know how that goes. Chris
 
 

Hack saw?

Len: I've thought about that several times. I Have a Ruger SBH and a few years ago I wanted a new front ramp on it so I could change blades. I bought a Weigand ramp with the slot for S&W blades. It is nice and I had to silver solder it on the barrel. I would do that with the Colt but I am still a little leery of hacking off the barrel and soldering a new ramp on, the blueing would be a touchup job at best since I wouldn't pull the barrel just to blue it . Excuses, excuses, I know but still thinking about it for a bit. Your Colt is very nice by the way. Love those ivories! Chris

Class act. I did not know Colt was going to remake the New Forntier. I missed there booth at the NRA convention, as I figured ARs andd 1911s. Nothing I would be interested in. WRONG. 
I love the Ivory grips on your gun. Are they real, or Faux? 
THe Tourus I have in 44 mag, was sent to my Father in Law, as a replacement for a  44 special that had no rifling on half of the barrel. There repair or replace seems to mean, Replace with something else than you originally had. He never rellly liked it, as he was a minister, and wanted a small framed gun for under his suit coat. He had a Charter Arms, but it was stolen  in a home robbery. The Taurus was sent to him by the President of Taurus, as he had waited for 4 months for a repair to his 441. The President said it came right off his desk, to my Father in Law.  Maybe the best Taurus ever made.
I know it has an Xe serial number. I think that means experimental model.
 

Thank you, the ivory is real aged note grain and color they are one piece and were made by Nutmeg sports . The tuning re bored cylinder was by Andy Horvath.

Chris I have the Weigand on several guns it is a great set up. But you may want to consider the Alpha Precision sight. We are going to put one on a custom Ruger and it is designed to screw in place no need to re blue the barrel  http://www.alphaprecisioninc.com

Len, that is a nice looking sight. I have only mounted ramps on rifle barrels with screws and that was when I had a mill set up to drill and tap very accurately. I no longer have any tools but a table drill press so I may be a bit hesitant to drill a pistol barrel and try tapping by hand, although I have done such many times on other than barrels. Let me know how the installation goes on that new project, I would like to hear about the details of installing and stuff. As an aside, I am curious, if it's not to nosy, how do you get the work done on your guns by gunsmiths in the States? Do you ship them? Is that difficult? I am not very knowledeable about international shipping of firearms and stuff so I am just curious. Chris

OK, so let me understand this Gunny, you are only thinking that one Taurus is a good looking gun, not all the rest? Or am I not getting something here. I guess you need to divulge your feelings on the run of the mill Taurus revolver... Good, Bad or Ugly? Chris

Chris
I  have a witch Dr. located deep in the Zambezi Valley that has some old metal files left around from Colonial times those along with a broken anvil he works his magic.

Actually I am located in Powell, Ohio my website is for arranging hunts in Zimbabwe the only country I still deal in. I use Andy Horvath from La Grange Ohio for almost all of my work he is even better that the Witch Dr. In fact if it involves metal he is the only one I use.

OK Len, you got me! That's  neat that you are so close to a Master Pistolsmith like Mr.Horvath. I used to do all my own gun work until health and age made these poor old hands a bit shaky. I am old fashioned and have a strong aversion to trusting my firearms to shipment by some carrier who may loose them. I know it is very unlikely my gun would be lost but I still fear that. So even though there are several projects I may want done I have avoided them and probably will live with whatever my guns are like now rather than ship them off somewhere. Good luck on your projects. Chris

I understand your concern about shipping insure it for at least what its worth. Insured I think it gets handled a lot better. Andy is about 1 hr. 15 minuets drive with the price of gas shipping is cheaper! 
25 plus years ago I used to tune smiths and single actions for my self a few people I knew,  I would never touch a Python way beyond my ability.  If I had the equipment and knowledge to use it I wouldn't be all that good at it as I lack patience. 

If you did want a barrel ,shortened and or sights added Andy is very reasonable.

Thanks for the info, I will keep it in mind in case I decide to do something in the future. Chris

THe Taouus is made just as good as the new Smiths. BOth are borderline quality as far as I am concerned. Taurus is a better buy, good warrenty, until you need it, and good coil springs all the way around. The Smith is a cheaply made copy of days gone by.
I see Colt is making the New Fronier again. In 44 special. If they would make it with coil springs, and a Keith type grip, they would really have something. I understand the price is 1400. What bozo came up with that figure, when the Ruger is 100 dollars less, Guess who is going to sell more guns, and make a better profit. Colt is a bunch of money grubbers nowadays, not like the good company thaey once were. Remember the Colt Trooper, Everyone coud afford one. Even the Anaconda was not out of reach. No they think the name Ccolt is sile a 1000 dollar hooker. Their a-- os a gold mine. After all the collectors get theres, how many do you think you will see on the range?. Not many.
aJust my 2 cents worth. If you disagree with me, say so. We all have to learn sometimes.  Oh Freedom Arms are the BEST single action guns in the WORLD.  PERIOD. WIsh they would buy out Colt, and make a good DA revolver in a quality package. May cost more, but yu would get what you paid for.

I am spelling it phonetically. For my personal taste they are ugly who would want  a gun with Raging BS scribed across it and at least of questionable quality.  Do have to admit I have heard people say they are not bad guns for the money.

According to some people and from the New Frontier I looked at at NRA Colt has improved their quality control.  I have no idea how they arrive at the price but if an extra $100.00 is spent and passed on in quality its probably worth it. Generally I stick with guns made prior to the 90's and have no qualms over having them tuned.

For gun smith I do remember the Trooper bought one many years ago opened it up to see about tuning it and as I recall saw springs that looked like they were cut from tin can, I sold it!

What did poor Taurus do to you guys? I don't own one, never have, never will. My brother has a Judge, I guess he uses it and it's OK. As for quality and such, no idea and since I don't have one it is of no consequence. The same goes for S&W. Now to the Colt, so far I don't know of anyone who actually has a new New Frontier. I heard they were being issued in May but so far haven't seen any reports or reviews. I have seen some Colt SAA reviews and some available at some of the distributors like Cherrys. Will the NFs be quality and worth the price when they arrive, don't know. As for the Colt trooper, it was originally billed as the poor man's Python with modernization to make it affordable. I don't know if it was a quality weapon or not. Colt has done some funny things over the years, some good, some not so good, just like S&W. Sometimes companies are forced into positions over which they have no control, such as being bought up by conglomerates that don't care about the individual company, only the bottom line. I find it hard to believe that Colts and S&Ws may someday have "Made in China" stamped on them but then, stranger things have happened. Chris

It seems that when the people that cared about their product and an affordable price be it a reasonable  priced Ruger or a premium priced Smith are gone. Bill Ruger was one of those individuals. The investors and their bean counters take over and want to enhance their bottom line the attitude is every penny saved in material or production cost times the number of units sold flows to their bottom line.  I have even this this attitude in custom gun builders they simply take a production approach which in lot of cases limits your options and only put absolute minimum product cots and labor into their product. As long as customers accept this lower standard it will prevail.

I know a lot of current gun writers will defend the newly made guns but there are so many documented complaints, I believe if Keith were alive today he would be very critical of these problems. 

It is being said that Colt is waking up to this issue and improving its quality it has also been said that USAF has been at least partly responsible by setting the bar higher (NO CHRIS NOT THE BOOZE BAR). I have never owned a bad Colt single action not that I have owned all that many. I have owned 2 USAF's both had the premium finish by Turnbull but came thru USAF. The USAF was a nice gun even unique in its flat top form but expensive and both were over polished that the stampings were partially obliterated looked like what you wold see in a refinished gun.  I was thinking of having Horvath build my # 5 on a USAF but for the money and no quality advantage I opted for the gun that was a real Colt and used a N.F. 

Hey guys, interesting topic for a Smith owner like me.  I am saddened to hear the quality in the new Smith's seem down.  Here's my two cents worth: I purchased new in 1991 a Model 29 Classic.  I love this gun, top notch quality all the way.  Trigger action/hammer pull smooth as glass out of the box.  I have shot 1500 hot loads through it and no sign of wear.  Extremely accurate and I shoot at 100 yards open sights free standing.  Hogue grips make for comfortable shooting.  The finish on the gun is deep blue, not black and there is no blemishes from the factory.  I can say it is a true high quality firearm and if the current S&W could produce handguns of this quality now, no one would complain.
Thanks Chris for being so informative.  I have learned much since joining this forum.

I don't think our commentary was meant to be critical of all S&W guns, just some of the newer ones when the company was going through difficult times. Quality is a sometimes elusive entity that is often subjective on the part of the person doing the inspection of such things. I would probably love to have a Smith 29 or a Smith 44 Special and would be happy with either, but there are quite a few users who decry the lack of quality in some model years like Gunny has stated. I suppose it is what it is...... Anyway, I'm glad you like your Smith and hope you enjoy it for a long time. Keep up the good shooting. Chris

No I wasn't critical of all Smith and Wessons just the ones I don't like. 

But honestly people have been complaining about the end of real craftsmanship since I was a kid a lot of the complaints were as a result of more things being done by machine than by hand, not always a bad thing. We have precision computer controlled equipment that can produce far better accuracy than the guy with a file or someone using a lath and a micrometer. Barrels for example are much more accurate  than ever. But it still takes skilled people to set up run and most importantly quality control along the way and of the final product there are limits to what a machine can do! Putting proper quality controls in place costs money and slows down production. There has to be as much or more of a desire  for a quality product than an enhanced bottom line. 

Where old guns really less prone to problems than newer ones? I think so for the above reasons but were also in the internet age and a problem a guy has in California is posted and instantly known to someone in Connecticut. You also have a lot of people who post crap for the sake of posting but no argument the net makes allot more people aware of things they other wise would not have heard you would think this a good thing and it would wake up manufactures?

I have certain personal dislikes right or wrong and they apply to any gun manufacture I don't like .

Plastic guns I will never own one I have shot a couple and I can feel the flex in the frame, is this designed obsolescence hard to believe these guns will hold up to be handed down to the grandchildren.

Internal locks will never take the place of safe gun practices probably there to appease the anti crowd which is an impossible task. Smith has had a high number of complaints on locks jambing up a gun. I bought two Smiths with internal locks and opened up the J frame to examine the mechanism. It was extremely flimsy with a very small spring that if not in place perfectly will jamb up the gun. I am not sure this spring had anything to do with the guns that locked up under use but the mechanism appeared to me as the Achilles heel of the gun, not something I would want to rely on. I sold both guns.

MIM parts just a cheaper way of making hammers and triggers etc perhaps more designed obsolescence? 

But back to craftsmanship its all is not lost we do have some of the finest custom gun smiths ( and one who masquerades as one) in the history of modern gun making they are capable of inexpensive tuning to full blown one of a kind custom gun work. 

Thanks Len , I guess I didn't want Nova Scotia thinking we were bad mouthing his nice 44 mag. I stated that if you get a good one, shoot it and be happy. First of all I wish everyone a good Memorial weekend and hope we all remember those who made it possible over the years. I sure am glad the guy masquerading as a smith doesn't live close to you or we might not be talking.... Just kidding, hope you didn't get burned too bad by someone... I agree, if we can keep a few masters around to do the work we need on our handguns (or rifles) we will indeed be better off for it. Chris

This is turning into a great disscussion. Keep it up. What about Colt refusing to make pocket revolvers, because of political correctness. I understand that the deal wa if they wanted to make guns for the Military, they could not make certain firearms, like the detective special, Anaconda, ect. Lets here frpom the peanut gallery on this one.

Gunny, PC goes way back as far as guns are concerned. The 1930's set up the use of federal laws to regulate crime and hence firearms. I remember as a kid in the 50's watching old movies about how many soldiers brought back "dangerous" weapons as war souvenirs and how no civilians really needed those weapons. In 68 it was because of a few crackpots who drove the powers that be into a frenzy to protect us from ourselves. Even William Ruger refused to make Hi-cap magazines for his guns because he felt civilians didn't need them. Ruger is finally selling them now. Colt did indeed fall into the trap of wanting to do business with the government and yeilding to pressure that forced them to curtail some of their civilian arms manufacture. I remember trying to buy a part from Colt by phone years ago and was bombarded by their ads talking about "smart guns" while I was on hold waiting for someone who knew something. The acquisitons by conglomerates have difinitely hurt some of our firearms companies over the years and we all now suffer from the loss of certain products that were once mainstays of the companies. I see no future where infringement on business to do correct things will abate anytime soon. For now we just have to make do with what we have. Chris

If more people complain, and send the crap back to be done over, hhen they willl begin to make good guns again. Remember, when you buy a Smith,, you are paying for the replacement gun also, that you may get under warrenty. Kind of like Kirby sweepers. My Smith has been back 3 times. Finally I made it right on my own. Still looking for a recessed cylinder for the 629 though. Then I will be happy. I may put a 4th screw on the side plate, and a 5th screw on the front of the frame. Then I will have a real Smith and Wesson Classic. Oh and pin the barrel.
I need a set of Iron wood grips for the 629 Classic also. I saw a set on the net, and fell in love.

This is true of so much of what is going on in our country today. The left propaganda disguised as programming and schools making mindless liberals of our children. If enough of the people would complain to advertisers turn off the TV's not go to or rent movies and most importantly demand better teachers and curriculum from our schools you would see a change.  A lot of this, all of this is driven by money Hollywood must make a profit, advertisers need the exposure and the schools need levies past and union job protection take these things way and you will see change.

Back to the point gun companies are about profit get this message across with enough of a voice and quit buying the product and they will adapt to what sells. I said this earlier USAF woke up Colt. 

Too many people accept the status quo and are led like sheep. 

Of course we must hold the manufacturers to a high standard but sometimes that isn't enough. In the case of Colt, they almost quit the civilian market. It turned around when ownership changed. They are once again becoming user friendly as far as civilian sales but they are by no means the company they once were. Smith is almost in the same category, as they are finally turning the corner on product quality and sales that are geared toward the user, but it remains to be seen if these companies will be as good as they once were. Remington is another example, look at how their marketing and product line has changed over the last few years and look at the smaller companies that have been added to the portfolio of the parent company Cerebus in the sub-company called Freedom Group. Some of the smaller companies like DPMS and Bushmaster will most likely be dissolved eventually and those quality products will merge into the Remington line whether we like it or not, and the overall quality will be up for grabs. Marlin and it's little group of companies may survive in that cluster of Freedom Group but who knows for certain. So, yes we have to demand quality and good service but we also have to understand that some of these companies may just be lost after a while. Chris

The early writers were truly a different breed than todays they were objective right or wrong they gave their an honest opinion not hype.  I think this helped the industry or at least the end user.
A very good friend of mine retired writer Ed Matunas was very honest in his articles and I found him to be very open minded as I was able to change his thinking on certain calibers and bullets after showing him from real field experience as a result of making a number of trips with me to Africa. Once I shared with him a very bad experienced I had had with a Weatherby rifle which brought out a weakness in the construction of the gun. To my surprise he wrote about it  and I asked him if he wasn't concerned about offending Weatherby as Roy was a friend of his, he wasn't. 
Ed was and a big fan of Ruger bolt actions  he usually carried a 416 Rigby in their model 77. Eds tall just over 6' with long arms and he loved the way that rifle handled but if your of average height their long barrels made them very clumsy especially in thick bush. While I never carried one I pointed this out to him and mentioned some other people who felt the same. When he returned he called Bill Ruger and passed this feed back directly to him I think Bills initial reaction was they were selling well why change it but some years later they did come out with a shorter and more handy form of this rifle.
The old timers Keith, Askins, Jorden, etc had a lot of real experience be it shooting hunting animals or people they knew from really doing it what worked and why they did not have to draw conclusions from two days of hunting or some theoretical knock down chart.

I miss these old guys hell I guess I am now among the old guys.