44-40 Clear Ballistics Gel tests

Thanks for the videos. I tried to tune the post up by fixing the links, if you see a problem let me know. I'll try to find a video player for the site.

Good videos SJ.
You have pretty much illustrated what I and others have found in the smaller calibers-bullet expansion is at a minimum with heavier bullets.

The 44 WCF is a round I have some familiarity with. I've kicked around with an old SAA, and a newer 44 WCF levergun in years gone past. Nothing in my experience suggested that the round should be anything other than obsolete, or reserved for reenactments. The thin brass works wonders at modest charges to expand and seal the chamber of leverguns, but is easily wrinkled, or otherwise wrecked by enthusiastic handloading. Hot handloads age 44WCF brass distressingly fast, and if you get too extravagant with your charges, prepare to spend time removing the remains of separated cases. Bullet max is slightly over 200 grains, which is light for a 44 caliber.
If you enjoy shooting the venerable round, great, but the first centerfire 44 cal. cartridge has been replaced by later versions that are friendier to load, more powerful to shoot, and just as accurate.

Thanks for the kind words on my horrible video commentary......lol

Actually I differ with your reply. I think the 44-40 is a great cartridge, just not for the Speer Gold Dot Hollow Point bullet #4427 for what that bullet was designed for with my loads. I wish I could conduct all the test in one weekend but it aint gonna happen. Just sit back and watch, you'll see ;-)   The 44-40 cartridge is not one you can ride hard and put up wet....one must relate to it, understand it, be gentle but yet firm. You don't shoot the cartridge, you have a relationship with it. :-). Is it the best cartridge, nope......is it the easiest to handload, nope.....but it is my cartridge.
From watching other videos I think one thing I have learned is that with factory ammo shooting one may be enough for testing but handloads may require a few to prove consistency.

Faster is NOT always better. I do not plan on shooting through car windows, brick walls or even sheet rock walls.....but I don't exactly see anyone wearing four layers of denim shirts either. :P  The world is too complicated for the perfect bullet, but the 44-40 has proven itself as a killer for over 30 years. The fact is, know one knows what the perfect bullet is.......but until then....I carry a 44 Magnum

Wish someone would teach me how to work this video camera.........

I suppose the reason we have so many cartridges to choose from, is because each of us is so individual.
If you love the 44 WCF, then you love it, and thats' it.

I, however always believed it was at its best as it was originally designed, with a full house of 3F under 200 FN lead, not cast too hard. Like I said, I enjoyed the round, but IMHO there are better ones out there.
In reality, the 44WCF is a rifle round. The bottle necked shape was for fast and hiccup free feeding. The 200 grain (nominally) bullet was to retain as much punch as possible while providing the greatest muzzle velocity available. Still, the 44 WCF found more popularity with prospectors, scouts, and Indian fighters than it ever did on the hunting field.
I did hear one chronicler maintain that where he grew up on the East Coast, the 44 WCF was the most popular Deer round. His turf featured thick woods with heavy undergrowth-a recipe for short shots, and a requirement for quick follow ups, something light recoiling leverguns can do well.
With today's' technology, the 44 WCF can be an extremely accurate cartridge, as long as one isn't using a gun with off the map specs. However, I maintain that the special is every bit as accurate, and can fling much more substantial projectiles, while the magnum does in a pistol what the 44 WCF did in a rifle.
I love Winchesters, and I love their cartridges, but I've had too many up close and personal tangos with big and scary adversaries to willingly accept needless limitations.

You bet Mak!!!!   I have a guy, w30wcf, sending me some 42798 and 180gr lead hollow points from an original mold for the 44 WCF. Can not wait to test them with 32 and 40gr of FF Swiss.

BP is an excellent choice, if you can find the real McCoy.

Mr. Taffin did a great article a couple years ago, featuring classic sixguns and black powder loads. I forget the name of the bullets he used, something like black dog, but  the key with BP is a little compression does it good. Note, I'm referring only to genuine, real BLACK POWDER. Some of the substitutes absolutely should not be compressed!
Lyman was the source, as far as I can recall, for a genuine 44WCF BP bullet-no crimping groove, because the bullet was to be set over a full case, so no chance of setback.
Well, keep us posted, just don't go facing down any Grizzlies, ok?

Test #3 coming up!!  Thanks to w30wcf for casting these and sending them to me.

Proposed: TEST 3 will come from these three sets of lead bullets.

Casting by w30wcf, aka w44wcf

42499 Hollow Point, 50/1 alloy, NASA Lube, 197.5gr, .424 dia

42798, 75/1 alloy, NASA Lube, 216gr, .427 dia

42798, Pure Lead, SPG Lube, 217gr, .427 dia

All charges, 

36gr Swiss FFg by weight, 

1/8 compression with a powder compression die, 

Bullets hand set and a LFC over driving band

RP Brass

CCI 300 primers

First shots from 50 yards with Chrono at gel face.

Marlin 1894CB

Additional testing if room in gel......Uberti "Buckhorn" 7 1/2 barrel from 10'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRzVWaxc9vU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpQa0oQ0zxo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0cfvsruBuQ

To make an incredibly long story short 

Marlin 1894CB 24" Barrel
Uberti "Buckhorn" 7 1/2" Barrel

Group One - 24299 Hollowpoint 50/1 Alloy Mix
1. Rifle - 14" Penetration, 1,187fps @ 50 Yards
2. Revolver - 17 1/2" Penetration, 970fps @ 10ft Gel - 15' for chrono

Group Two - 42798 75/1 Alloy Mix
1. Rifle - 27" Penetration, 1,162fps @ 50 Yards
2. Revolver - Passed through 32", no recovery, 941fps @ 10ft Gel - 15' for chrono

Group Three - 42798 Pure Lead Alloy
1. Rifle - 23" Penetration, no chrono reading....est. 1,162fps @ 50 Yards
2. Revolver - Passed through 32", no recovery, 963fps @ 10ft Gel - 15' for chrono

More Here:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL9XZjWb-Avz0ZePHK7e2dfsLyaxjrpoP4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hqwUnb1a1o

Those gel tests sure explain how a bullet reacts! How many different loads are you gonna test? I was really surprised at some of the penetration from certain loads. The revolver test in group 2  and 3 went completely through? Chris S

Chris, some of the revolver shots went a full 32+ inches and not recovered. Mostly lead bullets with presumed no expansion. This is actually expected with hard lead bullets but the soft lead bullets did surprise me on those that did make it through the gel. Funny how the rifle shots stopped but the revolver shots made it all the way. However, again it is really expected because the rifle shots expanded enough to slow down. Hard lead is really only needed for large game, bears and even those exotic African animals which of course arent hunted with the 44-40!!

I plan on testing a bit more in revolver and rifle. Even a 240gr in the rifle. At some point I want to test what I can in 38, 357, 44-40, 44 special, 44 magnum, 45 colt for the ole cowboy guns.....something you just dont see anyone really doing.

The pure lead bullet penetration looked truly deadly. I have started to lean toward softer bullet lately by blending pure lead with some of my old alloys. Correct sizing and good lube seem to make much more difference than bullet hardness.

BTW, I was using Black Powder in TEST 3

TEST1

TEST1.1

TEST2

TEST3.1

TEST3.2

TEST3.3

TEST3.4

TEST4

So when you are done testing will you do a write-up with all the data for us?
Thanks--
Al

Something like this?

A column with expansion details would be sweet! 
Thanks--
Al

Yeap, you are correct.....I gottta get'er done!!!

Here is a couple....I will transfer them onto the spreadsheet when I get a chance.

It would appear that the actual expansion is larger than the final over expansion measurement. Only the finished expansion is measured.

These results are worthy of a book maybe? Chris S

Your effort is extensive, well researched, and exceptionally well documented.
There actually is a prime impact velocity for best penetration. This is born out with tests done about 20 years ago with the 45-70. Turned out that 1500 fps impact resulted in deepest penetration for a 500 grain bullet, driving the ball faster, or slower resulted in shorter wound channels, even without bullet expansion as an issue-one of the reasons, I was told, that Garrett cartridges loaded a 500 gr. 45-70 at less than 1600 fps.

Thank you for the encouraging words. Not much love out there for the 44-40.

Is 44-40 as realoder unfriendly as the internets say it is?  I only load common stuff, 45 Colt/ ACP, 30-30, 38 .270 etc. 44-40 always fascinated me, but never had one for that reason.  

Cowdog,
I haven't loaded 44-40, but I have reloaded a lot of 32-20. It also receives the rap of being touchy to reload. I have not found that to be true if good dies, brass, and lube are used. First, the expander ball has to bring the neck out enough to let the bullet enter the case without deforming the shoulder. I have two sets of dies, RCBS and Redding, and they both work great. Second, I use Imperial sizing die wax for sizing. It seems to be easier on brass than other things I have tried. My cases are Starline, and I think they are better quality than most commercial brass.
I wouldn't be afraid to try 44-40, but I have 7 44 Specials to feed already.

Cowdog, pretty much what mworkmansr said!

The 44-40 comes in several different sizes......426, .427, .429 and .430....sometimes .431....if the expander plug does not expand enough, you can cause damage to the case mouth that can be unfixable. Some bullets can be roll crimped and most rather like the Lee Factory Crimp instead. Improper roll crimp and crush the case mouth.....especiallyif the cases are different lengths. You will find that with that in mind, it needs to be loaded a bit slower. Even raising the case and the die not quiet in auto index, the case mouth can be damaged from hitting the die off center. As far as all of that goes, I have loaded thousands and damaged only a few. Steel dies and the bottle neck cases need lube. There are several kinds out there but since I am not in a hurry, I just use black powder bullet lube and just whip on a little....if too little lube is used, you can scratch the dies or even get the case stuck inside.

If I could only make good videos, I'd make of for reloading the 44-40.

......... the bullet rests on the powder, I like the Lyman 310 die set.....but it is slow. THAT, I did make a video.

LYMAN 310 Reloading Die Set.....With Black Powder

I started my reloading career with a 310 for my ole 1903 Springfield  06 and then on to the 357 magnum for my Python.  That was back in the early 60's and I sure had a lot of fun. Now mostly 45 Colt but still have the 310. Chris S

Somethings are just hard to part with.

I never use the 310  anymore but I would never part with it! Chris S

SJ,
I do think I'm starting to become a fan of your videos.
When the economy collapses and the government is hiding behind ranks of machine gun totting psychopaths, the 310 tool and black powder will look even better!

Now you know one of my little secrets...and I keep it in a saddlebag!

http://sheriffjimwilson.com/2012/07/25/if-you-can-shoot/

I know I'm bringing back a threat that's about 6 months old, but I had to think after reading the posts & looking at the article by Jim Wilson, the fear isn't over yet.

Around here people are still buying ARs although the prices have come down considerable from a year ago, some components are still in short supply, & .22lr are just starting to trickkle in.

I think hoarding is still going strong, people are talking about defense rifles as much as ever, & with Daesh aka isis (Daesh is what Israel's Prime Minister calls isis because they hate the name, so I will too) murdering people by burning them alive, we are scared of it coming over here.

Bill Jordan's observation about being able to get more weapons if you can shoot is sage.

I've long felt that if push came to shove we could get what the other guy was  using & add to our armement?

In defense I think skill & surprise will get you home. Concealed means out of sight so the BG doesn't know he is in trouble & thinks you are an easy mark.
Just some rambling thoughts, todays headlines are anything but encouraging.  However God IS still in Control!
Thanks