Controlled Round Feed

Unrelated conclusion? I was just stating that my opinion of the CRF is over rated and my "el cheapo" guns were just fine. No need to worry about me driving the cost up as I have no need to improve on what I have. Nor do I have a "need" to own one just to tell my friends that I do. Besides, the money that I save will go to my PH, who by the way, doesn't back me up with a CRF either.....now, how about some fun talk and we will change the subject to transfer bar safeties? (can't wait for this one).

I think Mike hit the nail on the head when he mentioned PH's backing up CRF guys with double rifles because a double can get off two rounds way  faster than any bolt gun guy no matter what feed it uses. Give me a nice double anytime, rifle or shotgun. Oops, are those old bolt shotguns CRF? Chris S

You may be able to recover. Perhaps a change of name, I would suggest Heinrich Schuler. Then, buy a bunch of old rattlers. Interarmco used to sell rusty, old G98K actions when I was in college. They had barrels full of them. Soak'em in a light vinegar solution, brush 'em off and the retro guys would flock to your front door. With the proceeds, you could buy a few nice M700 Classics and some AR 15's, my current favorite favorite El Cheapo. I'm leaning toward one in 500 Beowulf for my next one. Then I will have a sister for the 577 Nitro.

Mike

I don't know Mike, I think it's taken a toll on me for sure. I do appreciate the advice on how to recover and may just do what you recommend.  Then I got to thinkin'. I have a Remington XP-100 and that has CRF! Oh dang, I just looked, it doesn't.  (before some get all worked up, that was funny).  I'm tired, been skinning Deer and Antelope heads and now helping the wife prep tomorrow's dinner. Have a good Thanksgiving to all, no matter what type of feed you prefer!

I prefer Mashed Taters and Brown Gravy with lots of Turkey! I also like some stuffing and it can be stuffed in my mouth either push feed or controlled feed as long as the food is fed. The turkey and ham have to be savored and fork fed so we can't push or control that. No rush when eating T-Day food. So happy T-Day to All. Chris S

This was very serious until a joker like you gets outta hand! Way to go Chris.

Well, I have always requested Thanksgiving dinner without birds with bones. This year, I got my way. My wife broke a metacarpal so I get to make the feast. 
1. Ravioli Caprese - Easy to make and no leftovers
2. Homemade Italian bread with honey butter
3. Mike's Amazing Christmas cheesecake.
     I gave the recipe to Craig Clayborne years ago. Simple, and women tear each others blouses off for the last piece.
Almost no cleanup, and the best part is: no relatives except son and grandson.
Everybody have a glorious day and give lots of Thanks. We still have our rifles, CRF or no, and our great little El Cheapos, the AR15.

Mike

Thank you Mike, Ummm, Chris and I should be there? 2-ish?  The menu sounds great.  Hope the wife recoups soon!

...sounds like a great menu Mike, no problems there. Some peeps like EMK Don have problems with my humor!!!! Don't see why? I always give thanks for all the blessing on Turkey Day and even the fact we have a choice of CRF or Non-CRF...... that's what great about this country! Chris S

Yes, and when some give their personal opinions of the type they prefer, an Elf (not from the North Pole either) tries to knock you for buying less expensive arms....(I refrained from the term El-Cheapo). And Chris, your "humor" is a treasure I have come to enjoy very much. So there!     Be careful, you may get your wish of being force fed!

But I will be happy to hand the kitchen duties back. I like to cook, but on my terms.
I think we should all go outside at high noon and fire off some popguns, CRF or El Cheapo. Maybe I'll bumpfire two AR's at once. Can't do that with a K98.

Mike

I'm speechless...............................................(hey, where can I get one of those?)

I won't ask who she is but I too hope she gets back in the Kitchen????? OK. Chris S

One last question, you were complaining of where you live. Now, where did you find her? IF you found her there, STAY! IF you brought her from where you were, and she's staying, KEEP her. Or, get her out of there or??? Gawd I'm confused. I'm going out at  this hour in the dark to hang Christmas lights and ponder things. Hey, one last thing. What is her opinion of CRF? Just wundrin'.

EMK;
I tried to make it obvious that they come in pairs. But the AR's I have started to grab where I find them. I swore I would never own one, but it only took a month to grab two. As soon as I get through the year's annoying business, I am going to grab one in big bore persuasion. I just haven't decided on 458 SOCOM or 50 Beowulf. 
So, putting the discussion of CRF worthiness to bed allowed me to complete Thanksgiving Dinner:

1) Ravioli Caprese

2) Christmas Cheesecake a le Mike
Very little cleanup and time before, during, and after for iced bourbon.
As to where I found her; north Montana, a librarian and a real treasure. Can even make me forget what a grouch and crabass I can be.

Hope everybody had a wonderful day in whatever style butters their biscuit.
If I do this very often, I'm going to have to get a pasta maker.

Mike

Well, hope everyone here has a good Thanksgiving weekend.
Funny thing, how short life is, so hope everyone is enjoying themselves!

I'm having a nice quiet day here, MAK. I hope you are also. If you have snow, I envy you. It's warm enough here that the bugs are all resurrected. But at least it ain't muddy. 
Had a couple of local acquaintances show up yesterday right after breakfast with (they thought) a rifle problem. The owner had a Savage 110 with a Nikon 3-9 scope on it. &mm Rem Mag, of course. The whitetails here seem to have a fearsome reputation, so I see a lot of 7 mags and those fat, useless cartridges around. Anyway, he claimed it shot 6 inches low at 35 yards. He had killed a bobcat but had to hold way over its head.
I put a laser boresighter on it, and it showed 1 1/4" below the bore at 50 feet. The scope center was 1 1/2" above the bore center, so it shouldn't be shooting high. I put up a pair of targets at 50 yds and had the owner shoot two rounds. One was 3" low and 2" left. Two was 4" low and 3" left. I tried a pair and got two touching at target center. His buddy fired one and was 1/2" left of mine. I advised him to go to Hunters Hollow in Oxford, get a 355 rd box of 22 LR, and practice trigger control and follow through before he wasted a lot of 7 Mag ammo. Also, since people here don't seem to comprehend firearm maintenance, please bring the rifle to me for cleaning at the end of the season. The bolt was dragging a good bit on cycling. 
Mike

Was wondering if the big guns on the USS Missouri were CRF? What do you think? Chris S

It never ceases to amaze me, how people will large sums of money on guns, optics, and ammo, yet almost nothing on cleaning and oiling. They never tighten a fastener, and when you strip the bolt, its ungodly. I almost bought what I thought was an ok pre-'64 model 70 in 30-06, but when I stripped the bolt, the firing pin, recoil spring, and retainer were thick with rust, not to mention the inside of the bolt itself. I don't know what kind of idiot treats his hunting rifle this way, but there are a boat load of 'em.
On to better topics, made it out to visit a couple friends for the day. Other than being honked at by maniacal yuppies in their overpriced fancy cars, the day was quiet, slow paced, and filled with the rural tempo I know and love.
Speaking of weather, well we haven't had normal weather for 20 years now.

Hey Chris, maybe all those big guns should have a big extractor on their starboard side...

Chris;
I hadn't thought of that in a long time. (Another long story coming)
When I was in 7th grade, my dad headed the undersea medical research dept. of the Navy. It was brand new, so they were given the old Naval Gun Factory on the river not far from the cherry blossom park that Japan gave us a few years before they tried to murder us all. Anyway, I went to a private academy called Congressional School. The bus that picked me up at home went through the base where the gun factory was located. There were still piles of barrels for the sixteen inch battleship gun laying around. I always marveled at the size of a gun I could probably crawl through. Now, the answer to your question: their feed mechanism was a tray that held the projectile. It was pushed in by a steam operated pole. Then came the silk sacks of black powder. Yep. Real-for-sure DuPont black. Just like real-for-sure muzzle loading rifles use. After the gun was fired, there was nothing to extract. Just like my Daisy VL rifle. so, I guess it would be called a caseless cartridge rifle today. But, I'm feeling mellow about CRF fans (including myself) today, so I won't tease them. You shouldn't make fun of people's religious beliefs...unless they're into Scientology.
EMK;
My wife thoughts on CRF? She has definite thoughts on a lot of things, but they sometimes puzzle me. For instance, she bought me a nice old Corvette about 30 years ago. But within a few years, her name for it was "the black snot". Her thoughts on guns are in the same vein. My '92 Winchester in 32 WCF is "pretty", but my Ross 1910 is "a piece of crap". So I think her thoughts on CRF would depend more on whether the rifle was small and cute than the mechanics.
Mike

For Sure, black powder hey? Wow......Thanks for the info.......Chris S

After a day of being thoroughly annoyed by banks, brokerage firms, and Lifelock, I think it's time for me to pose the question of the week to people like MAK, EMK, and Chris. This a theological question sort of like "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin". Only people with not enough to do would think of discussing it.
Does the term Controlled Round Feed encompass guns such as this:

It's my Valmet 412E 30-06 double rifle. The rounds are held firmly by my fingers when I load and unload. 
I think if a concept attains the status of Holy Writ, it needs a precise definition.
Actually, my grandson brought up the question the other day when he said, "Criminy, Nonno, what the heck is this?"
What could I say? I used to know, but I don't want to court heresy by giving it an erroneous description.

Mike

A conundrum for sure! I think that the term of CRF to be applied to your fingers would be subject to the stability and strength of said digits. I think it would also depend on one's ability to not get shaken at crucial moments. I would like to ad that I would be more than happy to help you, my friend, by taking that questionable firearm from you and adding it to my el-cheapo collection of non-CRF firearms. This would do two things, it would help you feel better by no longer owning a firearm of questionable pedigree and it would help me by adding a cool firearm to my again, questionable "collection". If it helps, I'll even pay the shipping costs?

I also wonder, Mike, if a trolling motor is a troll.

..........Quigley again and he has the shell in the hand down pat loading and firing that Sharps quicker than a fly can find s..t and that's CRF to a T...... Now the pin question has me stumped but I would like to know how that Valmet shoots? I passed up a chance at a Browning back when they were selling  the superposed O/U in rifle calibers, had my sights on an 06 but got sidetracked on something else..... Chris S

Not to worry Chris. I'm sure he can't refuse my generous offer. When I take possession, I'll let you shoot it.

OK, now that we are all thankful after T-Day I'm back on the CRF trip. Random thought, before we all got rich and affluent we used one rifle pretty much for everything. I started out with an old Springfield 03 I remodeled myself over  the years and used it well if I must say. Does anyone remember when an 06 was considered a big game rifle? I think Townsend Whelen used it for bears (even BIG bears) and on his western hunts quite successfully. When did you first hear the term CRF as applied to rifles? Probably not until the last 30-40 years when we became world travelers and decided we needed to hunt dangerous game on the Dark Continent! I wonder if archery hunters feel left out because their bow isn't CRF! Fred Bear hunted all manner of dangerous game and Howard Hill kilt him an elephant with a longbow. Why did Mauser develop its new rifles in push feed? Weatherby hunted dangerous game up north and in Africa with his Mark V successfully. I wonder if Americans buy more Mauser CRF's than anyone else? OK, I will take a break until I think up some more questions. Chris S

Chris;
I have been researching in my Handloader and Rifle magazines on that point. They started in the late '60's and early '70's. I have all the copies of the early years, and I can find no reference to CRF in them. The only thing that comes close is a article by Al Miller in a 1971 Rifle issue. He concluded that there was no advantage to the Mauser type extractor. 
Of course, the world's military forces don't seem to consider external extractors necessary, either. The AR15 has proved itself extremely reliable, especially in the past 20 years with a plain spring loaded extractor. 
I haven't heard anybody whine lately about the development of the Ruger transfer bar. Suddenly, we could safely use all the chambers in a revolver. Colt, like Mauser, was not interested in improvement, just nostalgia.
If I was to buy a new bolt action rifle, the only CRF version would be from Cooper, and only if I got a hell of a deal. Otherwise, Remington 700 BDL or Weatherby Mark V. No eurotrash including a Winchester M70. My old 68 models did and do wonderful things. But now that they are owned by a European firm where most citizens can't buy rifles or handguns, I don't feel any attraction.

Mike

I was reading David Petzal the other day and as a writer of firearms info he often says he prefers CRF in his DGR's but has admitted that push feed actions work just as well when used in a properly designed rifle. Sako came out with their DGR with a "modified Sako extractor" which they bill as being CRF in that it allows a case rim to push up under it as it feeds from the magazine. It definitely isn't a full length claw! What is hostility to history and tradition?? Criticizing a Mauser is now sacrilege?? I may be a rifle racist? Oh my word!!!!! I am condemned to purgatory until I confess my love of the "Great Mauser and his wonderful creations" The original Ruger 77, push feed, Ruger gave in to pressure from the Africa Corps and re-instated the claw extractor but it wasn't CRF so he finally redid that too and for good measure put a three-position safety to woo the old M70 boys back. The new Ruger American is push feed. Mak, you can buy all the CRF's you want, they say the fad is winding down and the economy is flooding the used rifle market with estates full of CRF rifles, many of which have never been fired. Go get them Mak. I will and always have been a meat hunter and whatever kills them is a good rifle! Did you ever wonder how eskimos killed polar bears with such weapons as 22 Hornet and similar? One fine old hunter stated shells were too expensive and the smaller clibers were cheapest and killed the bears just as dead. Go figure. I wonder how many moose (or Meese) have been killed with a grand old Enfield 303 up north in Canada? The M94 30 caliber was considered a potent rifle when it came out and suitable for bears and other wooly creatures. The big elk in Colorado that is billed as the world's record was killed with a 1895 in 303. I consider the 95 as a CRF, but I am confused. Chris S

For once I agree with Petzal? That opinionated old son of a buck that hates lever actions? He must have been taking his meds for once.

The Remington model 700 has been the best selling bolt action centerfire of all time with more model variations and calibers than can be counted by the average man! The Mosin–Nagant has been noted to be exceptionally accurate, reliable and not CRF if I am remembering my Russian correctly. The M94 is the all time lever gun I think! Marlins Guide Gun is a lever action, considered a DGR by all accounts. The Lee-Enfield has a 60 degree bolt lift compared to 90 degrees on a Mauser. I like all guns! I have been an unrepentant gun nut since early childhood and would be considered a right wing gun fanatic by the libs of the world. I like CRF rifles but I also like push feed rifles and lever actions and pumps (not so much) and Browning BAR in various calibers especially 30-06. Single shot rifles intrigue me and so do B-B guns, especially my vintage Red Ryder...... I have studied guns all my life and fully understand the fascination with the M98 Mauser but I don't disregard other types. My M700 375 H&H is a great rifle and my 308 1916 Spanish Mauser is a sleek, handy little rifle and an excellent deer rifle. My 1895 45-70 is a thumper! Think of all the fun you are missing Mak by limiting yourself to idolizing one rifle type.........Chris S

Dang it Chris! Your going to be responsible for the prices of our guns to sky rocket. All we'll be left with is those CRF things. They are over rated but those that like em will over pay for them. Let's keep these PF's (push feeds) to ourselves.

Check this site out for info on straight pull bolt rifles, sorry no Mausers! Chris S
http://gunsmagazine.com/the-straight-dope/

Well, the truth is that no push feed action will ever defeat double feeds and stovepipes, but it seems that three here consider themselves a majority opinion, so whatever. I suppose the time is ripe for a quote from Jack O'Connor...
"The most widely used, the most widely copied, and in many ways the best bolt-action in the world-is the Model 98 Mauser."

Of course I realize that you three have a far more valid opinion than Mr. O, at least in your own minds.

I guess I should reiterate for the 5th time that I don't have apoplexy when someone voices their religious hatred toward tradition, history, and genius via demeaning CRF fans and spouting off about their push feed princess actions, as if somehow they offered something more, or better, or even moderately comparable to Mauser and sons of Mauser. There is absolutely nothing a push feed action does better than a CRF, other than double feed, short stroke and jam, which no CRF will ever do. However, in the interests of diversity, I will once again tirelessly state that if you prefer your lathe run receiver and bolt, by all means take it up and enjoy it.
No fan of push feed actions can claim the history, the pedigree, or the design excellence of the Mauser 98, or its sons, period.
This is eternally lost on some people, especially Americans, who have zero sense of history, and thus blindly accept every lie and distortion laid in their lap by those who want their drivel believed. For such amnesiacs, history is no more meaningful than yesterday's cup of joe, and thus they are the sock puppets of entrenched interests.

I don't care if someone would rather use a push feed, but the push feed followers really want to make me one of their own. Why? Is it some inferiority complex?
I don't care if someone hates Mauser actions, and loves their Howa, Remington, or whatever. But the push feeders here sure take exception to anyone who loves the Mauser, and its descendants. Maybe its because to this day Mauser actions dominate whenever the finest rifles in the world are gathered. Maybe its because specialized gunsmiths here and abroad unfailingly continue to bring new and old Mauser and sons of Mauser actions to the happy hands of riflemen and women. Maybe its because some people just can't stand to read about anything that actually lives up to its billing, they just want to tear, throw dirt, and besmirch, out of some odd sense of jealousy and desire to wreck whatever they see as upholding better qualities.
Doubtless, I'll continue to be accused of claiming that the push feed doesn't work, that I refuse to employ any other rifle action, that I go to church on Saturdays, and various other heresies. This is the same kind of thinking that painted Jack O'Connor as the light bullet high velocity prophet, when the reality was indeed far different.
Ultimately, I believe that Pierre van der Walt said it best, and I paraphrase here;
Assuming one's equipment is up to snuff-
Well made, well designed, well cared for,
Up to the job,

Then it is the man, and not the gear that makes the difference.
It is the business of the man to master his gear,
Not to be mastered by it.

Mak: Why do all people or groups who expound a particular view insist on making everyone else listen to them? Atheists want us all to give up religion, Gay groups want us all to love them and won't shut up until we do, People who hate the flag want it burned or removed from their sight, Model 98 lovers won't quit defending it until we all praise it. OK, I've said it before and I'll say it again "The M98 Mauser is a good design that has millions of followers!" I have several of this pattern but I still have several push feed rifles which I refuse to dislike! You will never win! Bah Humbug!!! Chris S

Mak: I'm tired of Mauser I'm heading to the Shotgun topic to positively state I think side by side double shotguns are better than O/U's..... Come join in. Chris S

that someone is starting to sound like those libs who smugly claim that guys who like guns have a penis problem. Of course, libs always want to ban anything they don't do themselves.
Mike

This is a chart from #28 Rifle Magazine in 1973. The term 'controlled round feed' had not yet been invented. The article was about gas handling characteristics of various bolt action rifles.

Turns out that the post-64 M70 and the Weatherby Vanguard scored pretty high.
I still love the Springfield '03 action the best, even though there are much more efficient rifles now, like the Sauer 90.

Mike

In experiments on overloaded cartridges-with the intent to destroy the action, a point can be reached whereby no gas handling features operate, no matter what the features are or are not. Before this threshold is reached, the two basic approaches to fugitive gas seem to be;
1) Vent the gas
2) Prevent the gas from entering the action
Features, like options on a car, seem to engender lots of nods of approval, but what is missing from the features list is the question of whether or not said features actually work. Ultimately, the safety of any bolt action design is dependent upon the locking lugs holding-no matter what, but a well designed gas vent can save the shooter from a traumatic experience.
The opinion that the cut out for stripper clip use, and the slot for the thumb weakens the action has been repeated ad adnauseum, and logically, it makes sense, but only when the part about the locking lugs is ignored. We have decades of field tests in extremely demanding conditions, without any observable problem arising from the "weakened" receiver. Further, some commercial actions, such as the BSA used by Herters, have serious questions regarding their quality-hence their safety. In all, military actions are more consistent than many commercial actions, and have served as the basis for rifles ranging from the 375 H&H-62,000 psi, to the 500 Jefferey, which burns over 100 grains of smokeless with each shot.

......the AR platform is so good!......... "In all, military actions are more consistent than many commercial actions, and have served as the basis for rifles ranging from the 375 H&H-62,000 psi, to the 500 Jefferey, which burns over 100 grains of smokeless with each shot". Chris S

I would recommend a read of the article that produced the chart above. The author explained his ideas vis a vis each of the categories. Some are more important than others.
Mike

The AR couldn't have a dangerous gas venting event because of its basic design. I guess no Germans were in on it.
Mike

AR and the 22 cal. round went through all manner of bizarre permutations. It says something about the human animal that the current military round of favor around the world is just a pretty good varmint round. BTW, the semi-auto civvie version was never part of the original design. At times, when I forget how many bills I have to pay, I toy around with the idea of a 450 Bushmaster. Funny, though-I keep wonderin' how it might look with wood stocks...

If you want wood stocks on your "new" semi-auto then you'd better go with an AK, the good old Russian variant, the 47???? Chris S

A CRF thread went to wood stocked AR's?  I'm not a fan of them at all but....Check out some of Turnbull's wood stocked case hardened stuff and Windham Weaponry has a decent looking wood stocked AR.

What would be the point of making an AR heavier? I've looked at the Turnbull thing, and I have to say, he finally figured out how to make an ugly gun. I have two of his SAA's, and they are works of art, but AR's are not the right venue for casehardened steel and wood.
As far as being a decent varmint round, the right twist for 60-70 grain tough bullets turns it into a real hog buster. My next one will probably be a Rock River in 458 SOCOM. But, as an aside, I have killed a fair number of muley bucks with a Remington 700 BDL Varmint Special in 223 with 50 grain Nosler soft points. None of them took a step. I was really hunting coyotes, but when opportunities presented...

Mike

Man, you gents have a hard time recognizing a little humor!
Honestly, I doubt I'll ever bother with an AR, although stranger things have happened. I find AR cartridges to be a waste of both time and money. If I want a thumper, a big bore levergun, or Mauser type more than fits the bill. If I want anything else, the current pump, lever and bolt ensure plenty of fun. I can only see one useful purpose that an AR would excel in, and that's in the elimination of two legged predators. Anything else is simply ridiculous.

........we jest kain't resist teasing you right back! We are just happy your feelings on ARs is in the minority as the sales of ARs far out shadows Mauser bolts! Hee Hee! Chris S

Hell, I had him pegged as an AR fan. I really think he is and was just seeing what we thought before he started telling us about his CRF AR.