A Leopard can change it's spots

"PAPA I SURE ADMIRE YOUR GENERATION BECAUSE MINE IS ALL SCREWED UP."  PROGESSIVE/SOCIALIST/COMMUNISTS/DEMOCRATS, CALL THEM WHAT YOU WILL, BASICALLY CONTROL THE MEDIA,ENTERTAINMENT (SO-CALLED), EDUCATION AND GOVERNMENT, EVEN SOME CHURCHES.  KRUSCHEV WAS RIGHT WHEN HE SAID WE WILL WAIT UNTIL YOU ARE READY TO BE PLUCKED LIKE RIPE FRUIT.

...you'll be shopping for a range finder and a kestrel!

In approaching this problem, I've always tried to understand the opposition's point of view. Mind, not necessarily to agree, just to discover if their position had merit, if it had a logic, and a sense of coherence.
Unfortunately, all I can find in the current proposals is the odd belief that demonizing a segment of the population, and attacking them with ever greater restrictions, will somehow make society improve. I find this concept both childish and amazingly stupid.
In the end, movements like this current one promise the Moon, and deliver only greater chaos. It's the chaos part I see looming on the horizon.
Al, I love the pics. Maybe at some point I will have something worthwhile to photograph, but until then, let's celebrate whatever freedom we can still enjoy.

40 S&W Pistol and Carbine
More fun at the rockpit.  

I've heard some mention that the bolt in a semi auto pistol carbine has to be heavy in order for the blowback design to have enough inertia to properly, not prematurely, cycle the action. This means that a large percentage of the recoil pulse is the byproduct of the design.
I've heard of some folks tearing their hair out trying to discover the correct buffer and spring to handle the blowback recoil, and maintain reliability.
How do these builds work in this regard? It appears that you are using AR 9 lower receivers, that take standard pistol magazines, probably Glock.
I know I'll be dating myself here, but I've always thought a great round for these style guns to be the 460 Rowland. I mean, if one must deal with the thump of a heavy bolt, then it should be paired with heavy thumps at the business end.
It's been a number of years now since I've heard anything about the Ol' Rowland, but I remember how it used to bend moon clips into pretzels. Fun!
Nice builds.

Mac, you are 100% correct! First day out to the range one better show up with a bunch of different springs and buffers if it's their first build.
Pistol I run a 7.5 0z buffer and an AR-308 carbine spring, (over twice the weight of a AR-15 buffer and an oz+ heavier then the one I run in my AR-308!) Add the weighted bolt carrier group (14.5oz) for a total of 1 lb 6 oz recoil mass, and believe it or not, the buffer still shows signs of bottoming out in the recoil tube. (Have a couple of AR-10 rifle springs in the mail).   Shooting my IPSC 180 gr major loads (Tightgroup powder little under 1000 fps) it cycles flawlessly, no case bulge, brass flies 30 ft at 4:00.   Carbine I'm going to start with a 10oz buffer, and some full blow loads with a little slower powder (VV-3N37)  See how that works out, book says 1100 fps +/- not counting the longer barrel.
Amazing thing about these blowback systems is how little the case needs to move rearward in order to  generate enough momentum to extract and cycle. By my calcs, with the 7.5 oz buffer,  14.5oz BCG, 4" barrel the case only moves 0.0003" +/- during the dwell time (bullet in the barrel). In the 16" barrel / 10 oz buffer it should work out to maybe a little under .001" during dwell. (Unless my math is wrong, a distinct possibility!)

A levergun can be far more forgiving in the pistol caliber versions than the AR. There are always exceptions, but the purely mechanical action, paired with rimmed cases has proven itself to work quite well.
The pistol carbine is, at least in my opinion, a modern version of this classic combination. Let's face it, a sixgun or a pistol will only have the support of one, or two hands, the carbine adds the shoulder and the cheek, which if done right, is always more stable.
A few years ago, some inquiring minds took it upon themselves to study .45 ACP velocities in different barrel lengths, and they found the optimal length to be between 10" to 12", in terms of peak velocities. Longer barrels had the advantage of moving muzzle blast further from the operator, but actually reduced velocity over the optimal length. My guess is that whilst other popular rounds have different velocity profiles, all would have their optimal barrel lengths.
Generally, the higher the velocity, the longer the optimal barrel length.
Yeah I know, we are stuck with various laws which prevent us from making best use of this information, and are unconstitutional efforts to disarm and neuter the populace, championed by those who really cannot call themselves Americans and have no business signing any law, yet there are configurations that might take some advantage of this information.
I've often wondered if a 460 Rowland would simply overpower any available spring and buffer combination. On paper, as you mention, Al, we are talking thousands of an inch. There are some clever machinists working on tunable bolt carriers, but as far as I know, these are limited to standard AR gas systems.
In any case, both your builds celebrate a new and interesting take on America's rifle, thanks for sharing.

Haven't abandoned my Winchester PCCs, 94 Trappers in 357, 44, 45...
Shoot them regularly. Get the curious look or two when I have a couple of them and a couple AR's on the same bench!

It's understandable that folks would find the mix of leverguns, msr's, pistols and revolvers a bit of a brow raiser. Yet if the current crop of anti-freedom "justice" crusaders has managed to accomplish anything, it is the acceptance of kinship amongst all walks of the firearms community. If we don't stand together, we will hang together.
Personally, I love revolvers, probably always will. This doesn't stop me from appreciating the merits of a Glock. Similarly, I don't believe polymer and nitride can approach the warmth and beauty of deep blueing and fine wood, yet that nitride and polymer certainly has it's place.
Besides, it can be a good thing to challenge assumptions and presumptions. I mean, how else are we going to deepen and expand our knowledge?

45-70 in an AR 15 frame-- 458 SOCOM
Finished up a build last week, launches 400gr pills at a fairly respectible velocity and uses standard GI mags.
It's a thumper for sure!

458S, 45-70, and a 405 WCF

Eyeballing that carbine stock, designed for 5.56mm recoil, has me pretty convinced that some smart designer needs to develop an adjustable stock with a good recoil pad.

I have decided, heresy to some, that the AR platform doesn't tickle my
fancy the way I was hoping it would.

The AR has a lot going for it. It's like Barbie for Boys.
Mix and match,
accessorize, makeup and dye jobs.
It's fun to play with.
But I can't find it's soul.

I built a nice rifle. It shoots wonderfully accurately.
Wylde 223 - 18 inch spiral fluted barrel and an A1 style buttstock.
Decent trigger,

I like it okay.
But I find it hard to love.I grew up playing Cowboys and Indians, not Tacticals and Terrorists.

My true love will always be a lever action western style rifle and a six gun.

But I'm getting old now.
I don't know how that happened other that getting up every morning.
But it's happening.

My 30-30 Winchester made my heart sing.
It also left bruises on my shoulder!
Used to be more padding there.

I wonder if the 30-30 can be loaded a bit lighter for plinkin?
Would a rubber pad help?

Maybe 33 grains of Win748 was a bit much?  30-33?
Max recommended is 34.5 so they weren't THAT hot.

So I'm trying to find a 357 caliber rifle - Marlin preferred.

They seem to be pricey though.

Maybe if I'm good one will show up for Christmas.
Kinda like the Red Ryder Rifle in A Christmas Story...

Well, just wanted to say Howdy.

.

CL,
Leverguns arose at a time when the destiny of this country was being hammered out. In their time, single shots ruled, and the ability to harness the firepower of 12  - 15 cartridges was a tactical wonder. This gun allowed the lone adventurer to stand up to and defeat numerically superior foes, and more than anything else made frontier life viable in hostile territory.
The Armalite-that's where the AR prefix comes from-arose at a time when individual weapon skills for most military age conscripts were in rapid decline. A burgeoning urban population was discovering television and movies, hotrods and rock 'n' roll. The military spent untold amounts of money in a confused debacle to finally arrive at a moderately powered cartridge that could be mastered by someone who never shouldered a gun.
So, the philosophy behind the development of both arms was radically different.
Leverguns will forever be associated with a condition of rugged independence, and the AR will forever be associated with an attempt to field a competent military in a time of rapid societal decay.
Of course there is more, there is the fact that social engineers want a disarmed compliant populace, and the AR has become their symbol of what they rail against. The AR conversely is now a symbol of the resistance to the drive to destroy America in the name of this socially engineered deranged globalism.
As for lighter loads in the 30 WCF, probably the simplest way to arrive at them is to work with the starting loads in any current loading manual. Be sure to use the recommended components, and pay close attention to to your OAL.
One last thing, the levergun, until recently, was a hand fitted design requiring skilled craftsmen to accomplish. Armalite came into existence with a design intended to remove all of that...the module.
Different philosophies, different times.
Good luck and good shooting.

Cavelamb------Don't feel alone, I too have found a lot less "padding on my shoulder" with age and have relegated my beloved 375 H&H to the rest home and favor my loaded down 308 now or even my  22 Colt Scout for my shooting. When 22 ammo was scarce I used a Daisy pellet rifle to plink and shoot varmints in the yard.
Chris S

I did find a nice padded adjustable stock,  and 1/3rd the price of a magpul 

Ha, Al I just had to laugh just a bit at that photo. Now, I'm sure I'll be speaking French to some with this, but before plastic was even a thought as a viable stock material, we were inundated with the rubber vented recoil pad. Now, maybe some of them actually worked, probably helped along by its partner in crime, the white line spacer, but I just recall the durn things going flat as a pancake with just a little thump, or being far too hard to give any reduction in recoil at all.
I don't mean to talk this adjustable stock down, check, it might work as designed, but I would definitely test before endorsing.
Just thinking, which can be dangerous, about the possibility of finding a great adhesive and fixing a Pachmayr decelerator, or similar quality pad to a strongly locking stock like a BCM...

I bought a Marlin 1894C in 357 Magnum last week.
Took it to the range and rand 30 rounds of 38 Special through it.
The 20 rounds of 357 Magnum.

It shoots real nice.

I can see ho this could become addictive!

Glad I could provide some entertainment!
New stock improves the shooting experience with the 458 for sure. 
One thing sure to start a conversation,  the less recoil felt by the shooter the more recoil felt by externals such as the scope and mount.  The 458 already sent a Gold Ring back to Leopold,  The new scope ,Vortex PST started sliding forward after 50 rounds had to go to a mount with more surface area 6 screws per cap..

Got to agree, Cave, PCC's are a blast, and in our area can be shot at the indoor pistol ranges, outside pistol ranges, and rifle ranges, very versatile 

I absolutely love Winchester 94s, but they were never designed for shorter, as in pistol length cartridges. They do exhibit a lack of cycling reliability when thusly chambered.
I really think Winchester missed the mark, passing up the reintroduction of the 92 for decades, and relegating it to an admittedly high quality, yet high price offering. Marlin definitely stole the thunder here, maintaining their shorter, handier pistol caliber gun.
Since this is an AR thread, I need to point out that the design was intended for moderate recoil, and the wide variety of optics, mounts, lights, grips, etc. etc. are all built within this parameter.
This suggestion may or may not be useful, but a good set of fixed sights, as in the Daniel Defense picatinny bolt-on offering should hold up to that heavy thump. If nothing else, you might give the folks at Alexander Arms a call, after all, they have the 50 Beowulf as their claim to fame, and they might have useful advice.
Love those 94 photos.

The 94s I have are long PCCs, 357, 44, 45 and cycle flawlessly.  Haven't tried 44 sp or 38 sp, but knowing the action you are probably correct.
Another favorite PCC is my Ruger 44, pre magazine model, definitely needs full length 44's. The rotary magazine model may be more forgiving. 
going to the range in the morning,  working up a 3400fps + load for the 300 wby. (Barns 150 TTSX and a boatload of H4350) Make ol Roy proud 

Partner has a Henry 44 Big Boy 44 sold him a few years back, that one won't feed my full length Keith loads, fortunately they could be dumped out the tube. COL meets SAMMI but meplat diameter gets in the way. 

...a stronger action?

I'm certain that there are many 94s that function correctly with the pistol calibers, yet in my own experience, and that of others, both the model 92 and the Marlin short action are the more reliable designs when it comes to proper cycling. This isn't a condemnation of the 94, because the rifle was designed around true rifle cartridges such as the 32-40, the 38-55, and of course the ageless 30-30. Mr. Browning designed the falling base plate to shorten the receiver as much as possible, and we all know that idea was exceptionally sound. 
I really think Winchester went to the pistol cartridges in the 94 for reasons other than perfect fit.
Right here I will freely admit that I wish I could have closed the deal on that 94 Trapper in 44 Magnum last year. I say this to show that I still like these guns, despite issues I have found with them in the past.
The 92 was the 1886 action shortened to accommodate pistol rounds, making for a very handy  arm indeed. It didn't take long for people to discover that the 92 was a very strong action. Winchester had proprietary high velocity ammunition for sale, the famous ballistician Phil Sharpe loaded it to currently NOT recommended levels, and it was a favorite for Magnum conversion in the day.
Is the 92 stronger than the 94?
All important variables being similar, then yes it is. How much stronger depends on those variables.
Facts are that for most people, a well executed 92 will handle cartridges too powerful to enjoy.

Back from the range, chrono'd the Ruger 44 (among other things), carbine has been a  good shooter for a long time, not much of a looker but beats up a 100 yard target nicely and never had a feed issue with any full blow ammo. 

240 Nosler HP / 23.5 H110

265 gr Hornady Interlock

The 458 in its final configuration:

Mak, your post above got me thinking, loading gate and action seem small on my 94's so I checked. a 30-30 min COL is 2.450" (according to the first book I opened) I measured the full travel of the bolt on my 45 Colt 94 Trapper = 2.238" so apparently the PCC 94's are not the same as the rifle caliber 94's. 
Interesting. Can't find any documentation to confirm this. 

The 94, when adapted to pistol cartridges, was indeed built with a shortened throw. If one compares the standard action to the pistol action, the bolt on the pistol action has an easily observable shorter travel.
That said, the receiver and internals are essentially identical between the two models. Winchester began offering the 94 in the 44s shortly after the infamous post '64 production changes. Interestingly, as much as the 30-30 models were reviled, the 44s seem to have a a following. Collectors can be an interesting breed.
Those Ruger 44 carbines always had a following as well. It seems a number of folks found the gun useful and practical despite being a little homely.

AR15 Sig Sauer non threaded 16" barrel, Aero Precision Gen 2 receiver set Toolcraft BCG  Vortex Viper PST Gen 2 1-6x24

AR15 Sig Sauer 16" non Threaded Barrel--Porting by Ace's Mill, Anderson upper and lower receiver, Toolcraft BCG, Magpul MBUS sights

AR 308 Pistol Sig Sauer 12.5" Barrel, Milled 80% lower, SBA3 Pistol Brace, Sig Romeo5 red dot


Sig Sauer AR barrels you ask? Good quality, very tight chambers, and on clearance at one of the liquidator sites. (Gas ports all undersized, may be the reason for the fire sale)

I have had many hours of AR speak over the years, and one topic that never fails to get the fur flying is that of barrel length.
In keeping with this, I'd like to ask you what your optimum bbl is.

Tough question, no one size fits all!
What I like with no basis in ballistics or science:
Standard rifle for hunting 18"-22"
18" in the AR configuration 
Magnum rifle for hunting 24"-26".
Not much selection there in the AR configuration, 
but CROM make a sweet .338 Lapua mag with barrels in that range.

Building a 6.5 Creedmoor AR with an 18" barrel probably get a cussing over that decision. 
The 458 Socom data suggests not much gain over 14" -15", hence the popular 14" barrel with the pinned comp to get legal or even shorter lengths in pistol configuration
Same for the range, gravelpits,  and zombies, short as allowed. 
Seems like some of the old Winchesters came with 14" or 15" barrels, not legal in my state as far as I know. 
There's a good start, what do you think?