Single Action (especially Ruger .44 special folks) A bit of a puzzle.

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countrygun
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I haven't been posting because I am busy this summer and using spare time to try and develop some worthwhile loads and info for a number of wheel guns, but I've encountered something that has me stopped in my tracks.
Let me say at the outset here I am working with a number of guns from .357  (about 5 of them) to .44 mag and Special (about five pistols and one rifle) This isn't my first ti,e out of the chute here but I am stumped.
My Flat Top .44 special 4 3/4 is driving me nuts. as I move up the power scale it starts shooting to the left. Not higher just left. Now I know about the inclination for that to happen in recoil and I have been shooting Single Actions for a long time. Now I have gone out with that pistol, A .44 mag flat top "anniversary", a 43/4" Blackhawk .41 and have gone from 750-800 fps loads to full tilt factory magnums and have not had any "recoil/bad grip" drift with any of them.
 
This happens off hand, "Keith" position (Back supported, hands between the knees), and from a sand bagged benchrest.
The pistol is now perfectly zeroed @ 25 yds for the Powder puff cowboy action loads and I worked up a similar load of my own with a 500 count box of 205 gn bullets I had on hand. All is fine with the other single actions, and the Bulldog Pug, as I "ramp it up" but when I get a 240 or 250 SWC past about 900 fps in the "little" flat top things start going awry.
I really, really want to think I am having one of those "intercranial information distribution" malfunctions rather than a mechanical problem. I am more than willing to admit to an occasional bout of the "flinches", but the FT Magnum is no pussycat when loaded up and there is no problem there.
I have slugged the bore and going through it twice there is a "frame" constriction as Ross Seyfreid wrote about, so I will be ordering a Beartooth Bullet firelapping kit on Tuesday. I am hoping that someone will tell me they had the same problem and that the constriction was swaging the bullet down and causing it to behave badly with the rifling. At least I am not going to go back to load development until I have lapped it, at which time I will tell myself that I fixed it, and maybe the "Placebo Effect" will kick in.

Chris3755
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I'm Not Much Help

Country, I can't help much except to say my SBH is a lot more accurate with 44 Magnum loads than it is with 44 Special loads. Possibly has something to do with my shooting shorter special cases in the magnum cylinder but I don't know. I think it likes hotter loads rather than milder ones and that seems to be the opposite of your problem. Have you checked the Ruger forum, they talk a lot about varying accuracy in the Blackhawks and Supers. Chris

Mak
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Ruger frustration

Let me start out here by saying that I like Ruger Single Actions. I want this out in front so that people don't just think I have an axe to grind. Now, the Ruger Single Action is notorious for a rolling lockup. What this means is that some loads will simply not enter the forcing cone directly. It really has nothing to do with power, and everything to do with duration.

For example, some loads will be soft, even if they are powerful, and some loads will really crack. It has been my experience that the soft loads, with long duration, are less accurate than the crackers. I think the long recoil pulse works negatively with the Ruger lockwork. Examples of powders that provide for a fast recoil pulse include Unique, Lil Gun, and 296. 
Mostly, I find myself asking more questions here-does this load foul the bore more, or less than normal? Do all bullets impact cleanly? Is your powder burning clean, or is there lots of residue? Are you working with current load data for your powder choice, or are you flying by the seat of your pants? What BHN is your bullet, and what velocity are you at?

Also, keep in mind that all loads are not created equal. Some guns just won't like a certain load, and that means they will not shoot it worth a darn, or they will throw bullets. This same load may well shoot great in another gun. 
Finally, since you say the load is veering off to the side, it might be interesting to have someone else shoot your gun with this load and note any changes.

countrygun
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Well I have been using a

Well I have been using a variety of powders (2400,H110,4227,Unique) and the projectileshave been hard cast (from someone else) 250 KSWC,l Speer 1/2 jacket 240SWC, a 205 gn "cowboy bullet (from a bulk buy) and my own 240 gn 429431 from a Lyman mold and 250 Ks from an RCBS mold. My  lead came from a deal I got on a bunch of reloaders birdshot. All of them shot Well through a pair of Smiths and the flat top magnum, as well as my Charter Bulldog, but like I said, if I get above 900 with the .44 Special Ruger, the wheels start coming off. It is amazingly consistent. No real "flyers" If I adjust the rear sight 'till the right side of the rear blade is almost even with the outside of he sight housing, then the groups move to center. There is no "spitting" that I notice, or deposits out of place on the forcing cone. The bullets are cutting the holes I expect. I have been using Remington and Starline new and once-fired brass. Primers are CCI "Large Pistol" Standards, (in the Special loads) or the Winchesters that I call "either or's" The crimp is fairly "firm" rolled into the crimp groove. I have used both RCBS Green lube and Lee Alox. One run was sized .430 and one was unsized  Same results in any combination of ingredients.

Brandon Harrison
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Do copper jacketed bullets

Do copper jacketed bullets shoot any differently in the special special?  I haven't ever experienced anything purely left or right in relation to pressure or velocity.  Another question is do you get the same result based on just velocity (can you get a max unique load out strait)? Now that I say that I realize you may very well be using unique for 900 fps..........
To be honest my toes hurt a little too.
Good Luck

Thanks Harrison
My opinions are just my opinions, there mine and you don't have to agree!

countrygun
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Well I don't really

Well I don't really experiment wit hjacketed loads below the high 800fps range. I don't really feel comfortable trying to "powder puff" them out the barrel, so they get loaded up pretty much like the 240 lead "high" loads. And the get the same results. Frankly one of the reasons I like the larger bores is that I have found, generally speaking, they tend to exhibit less vertical change in POI across the spectrum of loads than do the .357s. But a horizontal change is something I am new to. The 205's I have are a "Bulls-X", sort of "stunted" SWC profile. I haven't loaded them up "real hot"  but at around 800-850 they group where they should along with all the other lead bullets at that velocity. I suppose it would be a good idea, for grins and garters, to prowl around and come up with a (safe of course) higher velocity load for them just to see. That is one thing I haven't tried, but one way or the other that would just be a novelty to me since the purpose of that particular gun is chucking heavy bullets at meaningful velocities.
I really, was hoping, when the I noticed this, that I was getting sloppy and it was a correction in my technique rather than a mechanical problem, but when I ran both the flat top magnum and Blackhawk .41, as well as my Beretta Stampede through a span of loads and got the consistency I expected with them, and immediately picked up  the Special to have the problem repeat itself, ??????  I really want it to be something I can correct in technique, but when it happens with only one SA pistol out of four, from every position, I gotta look to something else.
I took a look at the Ruger forum and went back a few pages and didn't find anything similar. I am definitely ordering the Beartooth Lapping kit in the morning.  After the lapping I will start all over again from scratch.  I will make a more incremental progression in the loads and try to pin down the point where things start "happening".  Then lock in there and start eliminating variables, with an eye on pressure and velocity to see one or the other seems to be the culprit.

Chris3755
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More Options?

Hi Country: Chris here again offering some options which may or may not appeal to you so don't feel like I'm telling you to do something you don't want to do. First you didn't say whether you are right or left handed. I am a righty so sometimes my shooting tends to drift left and a trick I learned long ago was to correct that by laying the index finger of my left hand along the frame so as to stop the gun from moving left if it tried to do so. Now, one option would be to just trade that gun off for another 44 special and start over. Probably you are tending not to want to do that. Option two would be to find the best load you like and leave the gun sighted for that load no matter where the rear sight ends up. It would be strictly a one load gun but it could be a course of action. Another course of action would be the smithing you talk about as far as fire lapping, or even recutting the forcing cone in the barrel to the much talked about 11*. Brandon's question about jacketed bullets is also good, it would be interesting to see what some jacketed 240 grain bullets shoot like through that Ruger. Chris
P.S. I'm shooting some Bull-X 240 grain LSWC type bullets in 44 magnum and they seem to do ok but they are very loose in the big Ruger cylinder throats???? don't know if that's a problem or not as I don't really hunt anymore, only punch paper.

Mak
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That Darn 44

I was thinnin that I missed something, and it seems I did-CG, are you using a light for caliber bullet? The .44 Special was loaded with a 246-or so pill from the time it evolved from the Russian-if you are using a lighter bullet, this can definitely change your point of impact.CG, I know this is probably somethin you have already done, but you need to try a standard weight bullet before you do any fire lapping or anything else. You can get ahold of these bullets, with a hardness approaching Lyman #2 alloy, from the Mt. Baldy Bullet Co. Unfortunately, most commercial casters make their bullets way too hard, IMHO-Mt. Baldy does not.
Try this first.
The problem with fire lapping is that it essentially removes metal, including metal you don't want removed. I know that many in the know types with far better credentials than I will ever aspire to offer this practice, but I do believe that they also are unconcerned about longevity-again, my opinion.
If you haven't, take BH's advice and load up some jacketed bullets as well. One of the most accurate bullets you will find come from Hornady, their XTP's are widely available and well priced.

Finally, if after all this your gun continues its leftist leanings, you can always contact Ruger, and see what they say.

Best wishes

mworkmansr
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Bullets and loads

I find something to agree with in both Chis and MAK's comments. First, I have come to the conclusion that one load per gun is a good idea. If you need something different, get anpether gun. Second, try different hardness's of alloy in your gun. I bought a Cimarron Bisley 44 Spl that was al over the place until I hit the right alloy. Now, it's right on the money with no leading. Incidentally, all my other 44 Spl's love the same alloy.
Loe the 44. Just fiddle with it until it's happy. Then, don't fool around. Kind of like marriage.

Don't worry. Be happy.

countrygun
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Well, I am trying to find

Well, I am trying to find "one load" , preferrably with a heavy bullet, but the sight going that far right to zero it isn't exactly giving me bundles of confidence here. The reason I have tried so many different bullets and velocities 205 lead 240 jacketed and lead, 250 lead is, well frankly, because I can. If it prefers any one type (hopefully something I have a mold for) in the 240-250 range at a good velocity that will be the load I am looking for. It would probably be a bit much for effective, and long, use in the bulldog and I tend to put all my loads intended for the magnums in magnum cases anyway. I just want to understand why this gun is performing so unlike a Blackhawk .41 or a flat top .44 magnum, loaded through very mild to (in the case of the magnums) full power loads. I could understand a technique problem if it was happening to the other guns when I go from sub-800 fps loads to full magnums. Just  a 200fps change is causing a 4-5" perfectly horizontal shift @ 25 yards with a specific gun very much like the others in most aspects. That and the sight that far over is annoying.

Chris3755
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Another Question?

Country, not to get to sidetracked here but have you checked the rear sight? Some Rugers are prone to sloppy rear sight play  and I actually had to put a shim in my Super because the sight had enough play to shift about a 1/16th of an inch from side to side. It gave me fits trying to sight it in until I shimmed it. Chris 

Mak
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Yep and yep

CG, It is not only a matter of projectile weight, but with cast bullets, hardness of alloy is extremely critical to correct function. You may not have any issue with this gun that could not be solved, as Mike has said, with finding the correct alloy for the gun. Also, experiment with diameter-some barrels like their cast bullets spot on for groove depth, others prefer as much as .002 over. Every barrel is different, each one has its own harmonics ie, the unique vibration cycle associated with firing and directing a bullet.Like I said, it is not unusual for guns to throw loads in different directions.

I guess what I'm not clear on is whether or not it throws the other loads. You state your plinking load is spot on-what about your other loads? It may well be that you are shooting the moon in hoping that every load shoot well, in any extensive load development, one will run into components that simply will not deliver desired results. This doesn't mean the components are bad, it means that combination will not work in your gun.
It is often difficult to get cast bullets with super hard alloys and bevel bases to shoot worth a darn-there are exceptions, of course, but in guns that exhibit less than perfect lockup, odd variation of cylinder to forcing cone diameter, large barrel cylinder gap, and so on, all of which have been amply present in Rugers over the years, it is IMHO best to go with a flat base bullet, in a hardness of no more than BHN 12-15. Keep in mind that most commercial bullets are bevel base, with a hardness of 21-22 BHN.
My advice is to leave it at the plinking level, and pick up another bullet for more serious velocities.