I would like to get some perspective from some sixgunners

...at 7 yards most of my sixshooters could tear one raggedy hole in the paper, (bigger bullets are a plus) if I was inclined to take my time, and they are all 15-55 years old.  You would think any brand new composite/ titanium/ billett berryllium  CNC'd  brass flinger ought to be just as accurate.  

When I was young and healthy, my Gold Cup would probably do "almost 1 inch groups" at fifty yards, now my .22 Colt Scout with fixed sights and my "un" steady hand could probably do "almost 1 inch groups" at 7 yards. I suppose "beauty is in the eye of the beholder". Chris

...one inch at fifty yards? That a one shot group? (Just kidding)  Pretty impressive group for any pistol, maybe one of  Karl's Combat NCO's  would do it in the right hands.
 
 

 
 

I was trying for a satire filled comment but I guess I didn't get my satire across! I think I've already posted elsewhere that in my youth I tried to be a bullseye shooter but found myself very undisciplined and impatient so I gave it up. The key word or phrase in my satire was "ALMOST", I found it slightly humorous that someone would refer to having an "almost one inch group" no matter what the range was. I do admit to having some 2-3 inch groups on occasion and maybe a one inch group with my rifle off a rest but I don't think I implied anything more than an "almost" group at afore mentioned yardages, and I  think I could do it at 7 yds with a bit of practice, with my trusty Scout. Now, I know, "pride goeth before the fall"  but I will stand by this. Yours Truly, Chris the satirist.
P.S. If you can afford one of Karl's weapons I'll gladly shoot it for you..........at any yardage you want.

I remember reading an article a while back, but I can't remember by who, that said the "average" new gun should shoot to about 4-inches for a five shot group at 25 yards rested. I'm sorry but for what a new gun costs that is really lousy accuracy. I have revolvers 50 years old that will put the rounds in a one or two inch group at that distance. I once had an old FN Model 1903 in the long obsolete caliber of 9mm Browning Long that was made in 1907 and at 25 yards would shoot about 2-inches with surplus 1940's Swedish ammo which was corrosive as all get out. My late 1960's vintage Browning Hi-Power would put out groups of one inch or more with UMC 9mm ball. To me what these new guns advertise as accuracy is unacceptable. But that's how they get you to buy something with a match barrel. I will say that I had the chance to fire a Glock 21 (ugh) that had the trigger connector swapped out to 3.5 pounds. Now that gun with the factory barrel would put out some very acceptable groups. The last Glock 21 I fired was so lousy the gun at 25 yards no matter what was done shot about a foot to the right. The only new semi-auto I ever fired that from the box would really shoot was my Para Ordnance Warthog .45 ACP. But for what I paid for that gun, it shot exactly what I should have gotten. To me it is unacceptable that a $600 gun can't keep groups within 2 inches.

And remember, the story was 7 yards, not 25 or 50. You look at Mr. Taffin's data all over our sixguns.com site and a 1"-2" group at 20-25 seems to be pretty standard. My 454 with my pet load does a "Little Over, Chris" 4 inch group at 50 yards from a "Keith Style" sitting position, and I'm a pretty shaky shooter. We see a share of rounds from shooters hitting on our 12" round target at 150, (that would be equivalant to 1.2" at 15, no?) not very many on the 30" square at 600, (equivalant to 1.25" at 25 yards or 0-3/8" at 7 yards, my 'one raggedy hole' comment), but at the longer distances a LOT of factors come into play you wouldnt get at 7 or 25 yards .
 
 

My 3 shot group @ 600 Yards, 30X30 steel 
(Yea, including 9 ranging shots, but that's my story and I'm sticking to it!--Al)
 

AL: You are the master of the 600 yard shoot! I only wish I could hit a plate at that range. Chris

In the days of my youth it was grand sport for us to shoot at oil cans @ 100yds with our Ruger .22s and 1 gallon antifreeze jugs at the same distance with 2" "J" frame .38s and Series 70 .45s. (Yes I worked at a service station).  Won a few bets that way. I may have become a bit sceptical about the Easter Bunny, but when I read about E.K. and the long deer-shot, I knew it bloody well could have been done so I never doubted it was done. Honest Injun' I know folks who shoot regularly and own their share of hardware and yet they think it is impossible to hit a man sized target @ 100 yds with an "old fashioned" 4" revolver (or some say a 6" and some say any handgun without a scope) more than "once in a while". Now I am not as good as some of the people that taught me, not nearly as good as some I know, but I sure wish those doubters would bring their wallets and come out to the range some day.
 
I don't condone hunting beyond the shooters ability, and I don't suggest the handgun as a replacement fo a carbine or rifle for SD at distance, but I fail to see how people consider themselves "educated" on the use of a handgun when they admit to "only occasionally firing at twenty-five yards and never bothering to waste ammo at 50 or beyond." I swear we are "dumbing down" the skill level. and reducing the handgun to nothing more than a close range people shooter, and that just ain't the whole story of the handgun.
 
Sorry to go "soap box" but, ""them folks is jest blame ignnerant" in the words of Jug Johnson (Skeeter Skelton of course)
 
 

Countrygun: I too used to shoot my Scout 22 at long range and amaze my friends that it was possible to hit things at 50 or 100 yards. I would shoot some ranging shots and carefully watch where the dirt flew and simply "walked" the following shots onto the target. I shot at gallon jugs or paint cans filled with water so they made a splash when you hit them. Great fun if you have a place to shoot the distance, unfortunately, now my range is restricted to about 40 yards so I don't get to go long range anymore. Thanks for the memories, Chris

I love to shoot at longer ranges, but I need to maybe defend the practice of short range practice.  Most civilian defensive encounters happen fast, and at close range (7 yards or less).   I think the average person is well advised to practice a safe, quick presentation at close range.

On the other hand, American Marksmanship is abysmal these days, whether with rifle or handgun. I blame it on the loss of a strong hunting culture.  It is definitely  not the guns. My wife's Ruger LCP 380 will one hole @25 meters when I do my part. I need to try it further for fun.

There are several shooting sports that teach exactly what you describe, and are a blast to compete in.  Good practice in close quarters engagement, and lots of reps, and a 2" group at 7 yards is fine, I see way worse.
PS Really like to see your wife's LCP on the 150 yard line.

I'll try that, but I have to ask here real nice to borrow it ;-)

Could be worse. It is a wonderful thing to be married to a woman that likes guns.  She is mostly a blue steel and walnut kind of lady, but she snatched up the LCP when they first came out and carries it 24/7. 

I do quite a bit of close range work since my little range at home only  goes to 25yds. A lot of my early training was under the wing of some old PPC type shooters who used to shoot a 50 yd stage and their technique for distances less that 25 was "Do what you do at 25, but do it faster 'cuz the targets closer and easier". (ghads I miss those old guys).  I suppose my opening post was kind of an intro to a whole line of questioning by the prosecution when it comes to the "Current,popular modern, progressive, latest thing" in the" fast paced and ever changing world of new ways in which to employ a handgun". I often wax philosophical about this and really annoy TheProgressives some times.
 
Now I admit to owning a couple of "Tactical Leggo guns" or the Guns that make Matty Mattel proud, but, particularly, when I discuss them the topic of shooting distance comes up and I get the usual "The average distance on a gunfidht is "X" feet. so that 's what I train at" This makes me think that the educations system has cheated both the speaker and the taxpayers by not teaching the speaker how an "Average" is arrived at. I don't, at this point, bother to point out this gap in their education, but rather I turn to their choice of hardware. (and yes I too own several handguns that I can load on Sunday and shoot all week). I seems like about 15 rds is the acceptable minimum in magazine capacity these days. Now  I have to admit some of these guns are actually marvels of design, and when no one is looking I shoot some of them myself. I find it easy to praise their choice and I may even have something similar to it to compare with. About then, things go all cattywumpus. I open my mouth and something like this falls out before I can stop it,
 
"Nice but that is way overkill in the ammo Department. After all I read somewhere, probably the FBI stats, that the "average" gunfight for an armed citizen in the "good guy" category is over in something between 2.8 and 3.6 rounds. Seems to me you're packing about 5 times the ammo you need. Since the "average distance is good enough to practice at and you don't work at 5 times the average distance (35 yds) why bother to carry 5 times the ammo you need either? Seems you be a lot more comfortable with a gun that  held just 3.6 rounds, that ought to be good enough for the "average" gunfight. don't you think?"
 
Of course I'm kidding them a wee bit, but I really do have a serious point to my smart aleck questions.
 
 

"Nice but that is way overkill in the ammo Department. After all I read
somewhere, probably the FBI stats, that the "average" gunfight for an
armed citizen in the "good guy" category is over in something between
2.8 and 3.6 rounds. Seems to me you're packing about 5 times the ammo
you need. Since the "average distance is good enough to practice at and
you don't work at 5 times the average distance (35 yds) why bother to
carry 5 times the ammo you need either? Seems you be a lot more
comfortable with a gun that  held just 3.6 rounds, that ought to be good
enough for the "average" gunfight. don't you think?"
 
Of course I'm kidding them a wee bit, but I really do have a serious point to my smart aleck questions.
I am still laughing over that countrygun. You rock!

While I do not believe in magazine bans, there does seem to be a correlation between magazine capacity and missing the target. I   did it myself back when I was a youngster trying to hunt groundhogs with an M-1 carbine.  I learned 30 rounds does not negate the need to aim!

Well, I don't really pay much attention to other peoples choice of guns for SD, but I do look at the logic and reasoning(if there is any). I see an obvious pattern in recent years that comes in to conflict my my own experience. It seems that a lot of "newer" (to be kind) shooters have found a way to avoid the the discipline and practice it take to learn to shoot well at distance. Instead they choose to rely on "statistics" to justify fast fire at close range (short attention spans/video game generation/instant gratification?????) Well, if the statistics are truly "Holy writ" they should, therefore be moving to smaller mag capacities. IMO the odds of having to shoot at 20-25 yds are probably greater than the odds of having to empty a 15 rd mag. As a bounus to this, the very obvious fact is, "the better shot you are........".  Now the person who can shoot well at different distances, AND carries a high cap gun he knows well is someone to reckon with. Too many are concerned with buying better toys than being better shooters. The people I am speaking of may well be a small minority, but from the noise they make, they do not seem so. I see all kinds of questions on forums about, hardware and how they can spend their money to buy the biggest advantage. Sadly I see far fewer questions concerning how to be a better shooter.
 
I mean, if you can predict what you need so well, why not use your powers to predict WHEN you will need it and have a shotgun handy at the right moment? I figure, even if I have 15 rds in the mag, within about the first 4 rounds, the debate will be getting stale and I am going to start developing an "exit strategy" that involves either going home and going to bed, or getting my hooks on a long gun so I can have the last word.
 
BTW, before I am stereotyped as and "old Fudd" I will mention (and I don't like naming these kind of guns here for fear of the effects of pollution) but, I am currently breaking in a new "nightstand" gun. A Springfield XDm .45 acp. I remember Skeeter Skelton, writing about the Browning HiPower saying that "with the magazine capacity makes carrying spare magazines Coal to Newcastle". I would think more so with a .45. Of course that "old" caliber will probably still mark me as a "Fudd".

I fear I too, may be an old "Fudd" for some of the same reasons, since I prefer SA's or reveolvers to the semi-autos for plinking and general all around use. I have, at times, kept my Gold Cup at my bedside with an 8 round magazine stuffed with some factory soft point lead target bullets. Right now there's a SBH 44 magnum stuffed with some 44 Special lead rounds. I have more revolvers than semi-autos and don't feel short changed, to the contrary, I wish I had a few more single actions since I feel like you can never have too many of those; I crave a 44 special Colt New Frontier but haven't found one yet and haven't stashed away the funds for it anyway. My rifle and shotgun battery is mostly bolts or doubles with only a 22 semi-auto for plinking. Guess I will continue to do as I have for all these years and not teach myself any new tricks. Chris

 I have three Mattel guns  (two subcompact 9mm's and a Kel Tec  .556 rifle-not counting my wife's LCP) If I ever needed money, the Tupperware  would be the  first to go. My bedside gun is my Dad's old  Colt "three five seven" with a 6" barrel.  My revolvers and woosdrunning rifles don't go anywhere unless the Wife needs an operation and we run out of cows to sell. 

I get a lot of sawdust and alfalfa chaff in my daily  carry guns.  My revolvers will function better than autos in these circumstances.( I did some experiments, carrying for a couple weeks without cleaning)  My wife says "an old fashioned job needs old fashioned guns"  When I mention this in some "newer is better"  circles.  I am met with silence.

cowdog, you sound like me. Some how the right gun for feeding the horses, riding the horse, and mending fences is a revolver in a leather holster. Nowdays I guess I should further qualify it by saying "STEEL" revolver. Sheesh.
I must be a relic. On another forum a question was posed, kinda one of those "If you suddenly didn't have any guns, what would be the first one you would get immediately?" type things. Out of about 20+ replies 2 of us answered with a revolver. One guy went with a 686 and I with a 4" 629. 90% of the answers were some 9mm auto. One guy referred to some polyplastimer 9mm as his "do it all handgun".  If I wasn't such a nice guy I would have quoted, 'A good man knows his limitations".
I would have probably thought about a single action Ruger but that might have been too radical.
I' ve said it all already, but that mindset still floors me. It's like someone talking about their love of classical music but saying they only listen to Chopin. 
I think I'm going to sit in my rocking chair, blanket across my legs, maybe take a nap and dream of a hunting trip on horseback, a big bore revolver, a rifle, and some .22, not an autoloader or a single plastic part in the bunch.
 
 

I missed this one, so I'm late to the topic, but I find myself here with something to add, so here goes...
The world and country the young people are maturing in bears little resemblance to the one of just 20 years ago. Young people today have far less experience with freedom, and lack of harassment for enjoying their freedom, than anyone who was born more 'n' 40+ years ago. These days, few people remember being able to get on a plane, for instance, without being treated like a criminal by some security service or other. Many in our society fear and abhor guns, and work overtime to keep them away from the young.

These days, young people aren't taught to think critically. They are taught to memorize a bunch of facts and figures and spit 'em back out. I can imagine that at some point, maybe someone will question the 7 yard rule, but then again, maybe not. I don't blame the young one, he is just doing what he's always done, accepting what the "authority" claims, and spitting it back out.
For a veteran shooter, its no great shakes to be accurate when the target is big, and you are close. One should be able to squeeze off a few that land pretty close to each other-as long as one is familiar with the gun, and the ammo. Maybe, however, the person in question has not had much trigger time, and is simply elated to actually shoot as good as he did.

I will say that few, and I mean darn few of todays high capacity autoloaders can compete with a good wheelgun for accuracy. This goes doubly true for those with plastic frames.  A good wheelgun is capable of sub 2" performance, rested, at 25 yards. It may not do this with all loads, but if enough are tried, the best load will be evident. Conversely, most high cap tupperware specials get by with more than twice this group size. These days, an autoloader is considered acceptably accurate if it delivers 4 1/2" groups with today's ammo. Needless to say, this kind of "accuracy" makes effective shooting much more of a challenge.
Finally, the days of revolver shooting were days of craftsmanship and pride in work. These days, there are no more craftsmen, their jobs have been shipped overseas, or assigned to robots. I wish I could tell this young one to put his tupperware away, and pick up am Official Police, or a Combat Magnum, or a SAA,  and get a feel for a real gun that actually fits the hand, and points where its intended. I'll bet you with just a little instruction he'll shoot better than he ever did with his tactical plastic, and he'll wonder what in heck ever happened to the country that used to make such remarkable works of functional art.

One of the things I have become more sure of as time goes by is the value of learning to shoot with a double action revolver. If one can become "good" with the DA revolver then any other handgun shooting is easy to pick up. I get a real hoot out of the folks who talk about their striker fired autos and how they have changed this or that to make the trigger "crisper" I think to myself "Gee I guess you've never fired a S&W revolver in the SA mode if you think one of those guns can ever meet the definition of "crisp"."
I have never had much of a problem with the factory triggers they complain about. To me they are just very short double action pulls . Traditional DA/SA autos DA pulls aren't much of a challenge either. I sometimes wonder if younger shooters have the patience and determination of past generations. Of course that just might be the observation of a curmuddgeon. 
I know that shooters I have started out with DA revolvers have had no trouble changing formats. One of the reasons I mourned the passing of the old Ruger Security Six. It was a great first handgun and served several people I "coached" quite well.

...with a DA Smith  SA style, RO gave me such a hard time, I bought a couple of Blackhawks. Still got a hard time, even though after a while I was taking my fair share of match's against autos. Finally gave in to the RO and learned to shoot DA, then set up my moon clipped 629 classic, had a real gunsmith tune the trigger, in DA I don't think the cylinder stops spinning on a good round. Smooth, fast, and accurate.  And as you say, in SA "crisp, very very crisp!". Too light for my clumsy fingers!

I was "stopwatched"very good with  a few times in my youth, shooting plates and my times were good with a S&W 27 and a Browning hipower, but I was always fastest with the revolver. Once I got into the rythym of the wheel gun I felt like I had to pause with the auto to let it catch up. Of course now, a few years later, It's a draw.

Well, I have to say, patience is certainly a part of learning. Good point, CG!
I also have to agree with Al, that a well tuned action can greatly improve one's shooting speed, even outside of competition.

I might as well say that I don't know any young shooters personally, but CG's point about DA wheelguns hits home-this is how I started out. After all the years in between, the DA wheelgun is still in my mind as the best possible compromise between all those gun factors we like to keep in mind-capacity, fast reloads, power, accuracy, and even longevity. The DA always will have one great advantage over any other action type-if a round is a dud, you just squeeze the trigger again. This is so simple, and so reliable, that it must have been a big reason as to why the DA took over from the Single Action.
Speaking of the model 27-I think a lot of people figure the 357 is passe', a grandpa who has outlived his time. Truth is, the .357 is a major caliber, and when handloaded, is adequate for all kinds of situations. The N frame is well suited for the first magnum-it has heft to soak up recoil, strength to take a pounding and keep coming back for more. In the shorter barrel lengths, it must come close to Mr. Taffin's PPP-perfect packin pistol, and in the longer barrel lengths, it produces the kind of velocity that still makes the .357 a very flat shooting cartridge. I don't currently own one, but I hope to change that, and soon!

The local gun club where I lived in my early 20's had a 25 and 50 yard handgun range and on occasion if you hadshown any prowess at those distances they 'might' allow you to shoot on the 100 yd rifle range. It was fun and well organized. I always seemed to do my best with my 4" M-19 on the 25 and OK on the 50. My 6" 29 and later 629 and finally 7.5" Redhawk shined on the 100 yarder if I did my part. The most fun was at the quarry shooting melons and gallon milk jugs with coloroed water and those grand .44's. The best times were on hiking and camping tripswith the old M-19-3, cast bullets, powder, primers and the all hand (no press) loading Lee loader. Shoot by day and loadby lantern. Great memories. I still have the 19 and that loading tool all tese years later. I just wish I had the eye sight and some cartlidge in my left wrist to be able to shoot as well now. If I knew I was going to live this long I would have taken a lotbetter care of my body!

I never got to the really great part. I received a Single Six (3 screw) upon graduation from high school and somehow as much fun and as accurate as my DA revolvers were the SA's found there way to being my real passion for 45 years now. I still likeboth but geezer eyes and bigger closer targets make CAS shotting a whole lotof fun and really great people to shoot with.