The Duke ranks the .45 ACP as best

I have always thought of John Wayne as the Duke and knew Venturino as Venturino, was not aware he was awarded the title of Duke. Just a passing thought. Chris

MIKE HAS BEEN "DUKE"  NOT "THE DUKE" SINCE HE WAS A KID. NAME CAME FROM A DOG HE HAD.

Good to know. Chris

 Is this article available online?  I'm waiting on the new issue to come to the PX and I'm dying to read it.
  I've also been curious as to why The Current Thunder Ranch revolver is chambered in 45 acp as well,
is it because of a lack of Industry support for the 44 special? 

I just read   it (August 2011 digital)-- Good food for thought. 

It's an interesting article & Mike gives some valid reasons why it's tops. Maybe for most field applications, but I'd like just a bit more power in Bear country.
Frank

I guess I will be contray and state that if you want a .45ACP why not just carry it in the gun that it was made for, the 1911. With an 8 round magazine and one in the spout, you have 9 rounds to shoot instead of six. I think a good .45 Colt or a .44 (Special or Magnum) works best in a sixgun. Chris

I guess if you just want a vehicle for the .45ACP & don't mind chasing your brass & recovering maybe half of them in the field ( I've been there) an auto is the way to go. However if you want a classy old gun that will shoot well, be easy & fast to load, & not throw all your brass into the brush, (remember a half or full moon clip puts all your brass in your hand),  & further if you really like revolvers,  then we may want to consider a .45 ACP revolver.
    One great thing about our Country it's not an either or nothing situation, if you like an auto, by all means you should have an auto. If you like a revolver, you should get a revolver. Now if you want to talk real class we can get a Colt SAA .45 Colt with a fitted .45 ACP cylinder. A good company by the name of USFA also makes a great one with dual cylinders.
Heck, let's don't argue, pick the one you like & best suits your needs & we'll all be happy.
Frank

I dunno, guys. I once had a very brief chance at a Colt New Frontier .45 ACP years ago. I do wish I had gone the extra mile and bought that gun, mostly because of flexibility. Today, the .45 ACP gets the best bullet technology to stop any two legged, and the good old 250 grain flat point is great in the autorim for darn near everything else. Chris is right, it won't have the power of the .45Colt, or the ability to handle heavier bullets that the Colt takes in stride, but I think there is a valid point in calling the .45 ACP/.45 Autorim a great contender-if not THE BEST.

If we are truly honest, we will admit that the most reliable of all 1911 magazines carry seven rounds and no more. I know, I know, this is heresy in the age of Wilson Combat and Chip Mcormick, but right now I have a barely used Wilson 8 rounder that sticks when fully loaded-the spring is flat as a pancake. For $40, I think I got three or maybe four loadings before it flattened-useless.
I have a Mcormick 10 rounder that I replaced the spring in because the magazine would not work after again, just a few loadings. I haven't tried it, because my sneered at Colt magazines work flawlessly. So, yes, high capacity can be had with the 1911, but quite apparently with loss of perfect reliablity. I agree with a number of 1911 afficiandoes, the 7 round magazine is best, period. The .45 ACP wheelgun holds 6 rounds, the 1911, 8. Edge to the 1911. The .45 ACP wheelgun can also handle the aforementioned autorim loaded for field use-edge to the wheelgun. Now for the intangibles- the wheelgun will shoot loads that are too long, or too short. It will shoot loads that are too hot, all things that happen when loading for the great 1911. Edge to the wheelgun.
I think a strong case can be made for the .45 ACP wheelgun, both historically, and in terms of flexibility, and utility.

I know you all are trying to make a case for the 45 ACP as a great revolver cartridge but I was pointing out that it is possibly not as efficient in many areas where a revolver can shine with the proper loads, such as a 45 Colt loaded with heavy lead bullets or even a 44 Special loaded to it's potential. The ACP was the Army's compromise for the heavy 45 caliber with the new semi-auto pistol it wanted. My whole point was not whether a 7 or 8 round magazine was the best or most reliable, only able to hold more rounds than a revolver, but that if I had a revolver I may as well use a great revolver cartridge, not a cartridge designed primarily for a semi-auto pistol.There is no doubt that a 45 ACPis a great cartridge in it's proper role but a revolver opens up an infinite array of possible loads and bullet weights that the ACP cannot match. A look at history shows that the reason Colt and S&W made the 1917 revolver was because the demand for the semi-auto outstripped the available production during wartime so the revolver was a substitute for that deficiency. I do not claim that the revolver is any less a great firearm for the caliber but I do claim it may not be any better than the other cartridge for revolvers. There may be a debate as to whether semi-autos are as reliable or as functional but that is not the question or the premise of the debate. The stated point was that the 45 ACP was the ULTIMATE revolver cartridge and I took exception to that statement. I stand by my statement that a 45 ACP is good when used  in a semi-auto, but if you want to use a revolver, use it to it's potential with a good revolver cartridge. If you want to shoot 45 ACP in a revolver, by all means go for it, but I think it is best in the platform(1911 Model or similar) it was designed for. Chris
P.S. Mak, try loading some of your revolver loads past maximum overall cartridge length and see how fast that cylinder binds up at the barrel cylinder gap..... Many a revolver has been put out of commission by a jammed cylinder when the bullet tip projects past the front of the cylinder. Chris

...a .45ACP wheel gun around to use up the reloads that I find unsuitable for the autos...

Way to go Al, the definitive answer in such concise and simple wording....By the way, I am only being obstinate to give everyone a chance to get their real feelings out.... Thanks all for being so understanding of a poor old man who is set in his views on revolvers and semi-autos..... Chris

Mac: you should probably check these places out, Tripp is supposed to make one of the best 8 round 1911 magazines out there.            http://www.trippresearch.com/store/store_1911.html
Checkmate supposedly makes the 8 round magazines for Colt.
http://www.checkmatemagazines.com/cart/pc/viewCategories.asp?idCategory=12
I have no experience with either but just thought you may be interested since you said you have never found a reliable 8 round magazine. Chris

Chris, thanks for the links. I may be interested in replacing a few magazines soon-depending of course, on finances and competing needs. I find the biggest issue with 8 rounders is that they put more pressure on the slide, and the compression is the likely culprit in lack of reliability. I can say that I probably will not be purchasing any more Wilson mags, and I know I will not be buying any more 10 rounders, no matter who makes 'em.
I agree with you that the .45 Colt is capable of more power, more bullet weights. I personally love the .45 Colt. Its virtues are many. However, its hard to overlook the premium self defense ammo available for the .45 ACP, but not available in the .45 Colt. I also agree that according to what I've read, both Colt and S&W produced the 1917 because there were not enough 1911s to fill the need. However, even if the .45 ACP wheelgun is an adjustment made historically, it does not change the actual application of these guns, or their enduring popularity. Unfortunately, Colt no longer makes a large frame DA, but S&W certainly does, and this historic company continues to make .45 ACP wheelguns available. Obviously, someone is buying them. I don't know what Mr. Smith of Thunder ranch thinks about the .45 ACP wheelgun, but it must be at least a little favorable-isn't there a T.R. wheelgun recently released?
Well, I'm not saying that I think the .45 ACP is the best wheelgun round. I am saying that it is a strong contender when paired with the autorim. Yes, if you stick a bullet out of the case in a wheelgun you do run the chance of locking the gun up, but this is true for revolvers in general, not just ACP/Autorim ones. We all screw up at times, and this is one real good reason to make sure the brass holds tight on the bullet, BEFORE the crimp is applied.
I don't think you will ever change your mind Chris, and that's ok. Our individual needs and uses are what provides variety of experience, and that's a good thing.

Mak, great debate so far. Several points to consider. The statement about S&W continuing to make 45 ACP revolvers indicating they are being bought because people want them. MAYBE, or maybe not. I seriously doubt that the 45 ACP would be on the list yet if it weren't for the wants of some of the touring professional shooters like Jerry Miculek and a few others or writers like Duke Venturino. If S&W stays afloat it will be from sales of their bread and butter products-38/357 revolvers and the line of semi-auto pistols and AR type rifles. They would never make it on the sales of their 45 ACP and 500 S&W revolvers alone. Ruger also realizes a special place for the 45 ACP as they offer it as a convertible cylinder in the Blackhawk 45 Colt model, but I don't think it is intended as a stand alone product nor is it always available. It seems to be something Ruger offers when it wants too. But all this is just pro and con since the main issue is still whether the 45 ACP is really a "GREAT' or 'THE GREATEST " revolver cartridge. I still submit that it is an "OK" cartridge for those who want to shoot it out of a revolver but there are better, much better and "GREATER" rervolver cartridges. I won't change my mind because I don't have a 45 ACP revolver so it is of no consequence to me one way or the other. I have my Colt 45 and my Gold Cup 45 ACP so I think I have the best of both worlds. Now, if someone were to offer me a Colt 45 ACP cylinder for my New Frontier at a price to cheap to pass up.....  Yours Truly, Chris

I think the .45 ACP/Auto Rim is a great revolver cartridge. The best? NO simply because it can't be loaded as hot as a good .44 Special, (in some guns)the .45 Colt, & or the .44 Mag.
Does this really take away from the usefulness of the ctg? Only at the top end where we only need the power some of the times. For 99% of what a revolver is really called on to do for most of us, it will do fine & shine pretty brightly.
Frank

OK, I give up. LOVE that all around BEST revolver cartridge. Have fun. Chris

I recently called Ruger to ask if they would take a .45 Blackhawk and make up an ACP cylinder and add a Super Blackhawk hammer. The answer was yes cost is $195 plus parts and shipping. If you wanted to send more than one in a box it would reduce shipping costs and it can ship directly back to you and does not have to go through an FFL dealer as it is a factory repair. If you have free spin pawls or action jobs they will go back to factory specs.

Heck I'll stir the pot some just for kicks & giggles. Remember the .45ACP was designed for an auto pistol to try to duplicate the good old .45 Colts effectiveness in an auto loading pistol.
Frank

According to another article penned by Mr. Venturino some time ago, his claim was that the .45 Auto was the spittin' image of the .45 Revolver-or "Schofield" cartridge, minus the rim. The Schofield was loaded with a 230 grain bullet, same as the .45 ACP. History as it currently told tells us the army had a short fling with the S&W break top, and its new .45 Cal. cartridge. The new cartridge had less power than the original Colt round, which was too long to fit in the short S&W cylinder. Again, if I recall correctly, the short Schofield was the only round loaded for the military as long as the break top was in service.

The Scohfield was loaded with, I think, 28grs of Black granulation not specified, & the .45 Colt loaded with 35grs of Black Powder again the granulation was not specified. I think both the Schofield & Colt cartridges were issued at the same time & sometimes the units with the Schofield revolvers would get .45 Colt cartridges which of course would not fit, but the Schofield cartridge would fit either. It's an interesting bit of history in those times. Actually both are good cartridges, I've loaded both & like the Schofield for my Wife who is a bit recoil sensitive & the Schofield can be loaded lighter with less air space than the Colt.
Frank
PS: I have shot the .45 Colt with a 270gr bullet & 35grs GOEX 3FG, which is all I can get into modern cases without deforming the nose of the bullet, & I can asure you it's a powerful load.
FV

I've shot some black powder loads myself, and when correctly crafted, they have more power than modern Cowboy loads, and seem to have more power than many "standard pressure" loads. Today we have solid head brass, whereas in the b.p. days the brass was referred to as "balloon head", which essentially meant weaker brass-but with larger capacity.

Funny, today the standard operating pressure for the .45 Colt is 14,000 psi-yet just a few decades ago this was 15,000 psi! Maybe they are making amends for all the cheap foreign guns that have flooded the market, but Colt used to offer a .45 ACP cylinder option on .45 Colt SAAs, and the operating pressure for the .45 ACP is 21,000 psi. It doesn't take too much thinking to figure that the Colt SAA is clearly able to withstand 21,000 psi, which is certainly a respectable power level. Don't try this in any of those foreign jobs!
USFA still offers a second cylinder option for the ACP, and thus USFA guns currently made are also up to the 21,000 psi pressure level. Some time ago, I stumbled upon an entire series of .45 Colt pressure tested loads than ran 21,000 psi or less, and while I don't recall all the facts, the 45-270-SAA was capable of exceeding 900 fps at this pressure-certainly an effective handgun load in anyone's book.

The old Schofield round may indeed have been confused by ordinance with the longer Colt, but what is interesting is that both the original .45 Colt-45-40-250, and the 45-70 Government-45-70-405, received numerous complaints from the rank and file as to their heavy recoil! I have never heard any such complaints leveled at the Schofield...

I'd be really careful about loading the .45 Colt up too much in Colt guns. Let's see if there is any difference between in diameter between the .45 ACP & .45 Colt The Hornaday reloading manual says the diameter at the web of the .45ACP is .476 & the diameter at the case mouth is .473. They say the .45 Colt has a mouth diameter of .480 with no measurment given for the web. Now if the diameter on the Colt case is straight at .480, that's a .004 difference in case size which makes a .004 difference in the ammount of steel in the locking cut which is the thinnest part of a cylinder. If the cuts are over the case which they are in the .45 Colt & .45ACP. Is a .004 difference a huge difference? No not until we remember the .45 Colt was designed as a Black Powder gun, & it's still the same design with better steels.  Could .004 mean the difference between a safe load & one that is on the verge of bulging a cylinder??? I think so!
As for me, I'm not going to crowd the pressures in an expensive Colt trying to squeeze out the last fps from a cartridge that is ALREADY VERY EFFECTIVE AT STANDARD SAMMI PRESSURES. Each handloader can do what he or she wishes however, & I wish them well. But for me, I'm not going to crowd an already effective cartride & risk a very expensive six-gun.
Good shooting.
Frank 

True enough that cartridge dimensions favor the .45 ACP for cylinder strength, however, we also generally use jacketed bullets in the .45 ACP, and cast in the .45 Colt. Jacketed bullets create more resistance, thus require more pressure to move the bullet through the barrel at any given speed than cast pills.

Depending on type of powder used, peak pressure can occur before, during, or after the bullet reaches the lands. In the case of jacketed bullets, is the pressure rise significant over cast bullets when they reach the lands? Mr. Jurras achieved very high velocities through using bullets that were both light for caliber and somewhat undersized. Conversely, full caliber jacketed bullets almost universally achieve lower velocities than similar cast projectiles. While this does not fully prove that jacketed bullets create higher peak pressures, it certainly suggests this may be the case. Can we quantify this and say that the higher pressure of the ACP overcomes any advantage of thicker cylinder walls? Maybe.
No one drives a sports car flat out all the time, and no one should load any centerfire up to the limit all the time, either. Whenever anyone is running any load up to the redline, it should be done with a strong dose of common sense, and current pressure tested data, using the exact components. I have not, and do not condone any method of "ballpark" hand loading.
That said, I do believe that modern SAA firearms from Colt, Ruger and USFA are perfectly safe at the aforementioned pressure levels. I will not exhort anyone to replicate the experiments of Mr. Keith and Mr. Skelton, since powder burning rates and components have changed so much, but I will point out that they successfully subjected very similar guns to very similar pressure levels in order to stretch performance. 
Anyhow, Frank, the truth is that very few of us actually need a magnum anything, much less a magnum anything all the time. I still love the .357, but find myself these days enjoying the .38 more and more. Same with the .45 Colt. I have my magnum loads, which I shoot very rarely, and my standard, or slightly improved loads, which I shoot much more often. I'm not Magnum Mak, crazed for power, but I do appreciate a gun that is capable digesting more serious stuff when the situation demands.

I agree with Chris. I have watched Venturino since he started writing. It seems as if He always had to wrtte about a gun he had borrowed. I nebver heard him referred to as anything axcept Venturino.
He needs to give it up.
 
El Relampago
 
Another eponymous name that I have has since high school

And while I'm at it, I have never had a jam with a revolver. However, I can recite a number of malfunctions with an auto. Luckily, the coyote or armadillo was not armed.

You are right Mworkmansr,

The only revolvers jams I have ever had were percussion caps falling back into hammers or cylinders on blackpowder guns.  I had a Remington 1858 Navy repro prone to this.  1860 Colts seem better at shedding caps. 

Every Winter any  auto I carry gets full of alfalfa dust from feeding stock.  I have had a couple of  close encounters with possums under similar circumstances as your armadillos and brush wolves :-)

I have seen high primers tie up a revolver several times, as will a bullet that jumps it's crimp & creeps forward out of the cylinder.
Frank

New Vaquero / Anniversary Frame BH in .45 ACP?
 
They might sell a few.