Handgun Cartridges

Good post Mak--Got me thinking. As you said, the 40 is based on the 10mm,which is based on the 41 magnum...........................I think Mr Taffin wrote that the 40  is not much different than the "obsolete" 38-40?  People get all goose bumpy about the former but would feel virtually unarmed with the latter.

I wonder if we could rename the 38-40 as the ".401 tactical", put it in a polymer gun and sell millions? That necked down 44 case would be something "new" as a selling point! 

We live in a world where new is always sold to us as improved. Somehow, we believe, that new means progress. About the only thing new really means is different, and different might be better, worse, or just the same-it might be all three at once. Modern wheelguns are better in their metallurgy, worse in their finish, and about the same in their relative cost over the centuries.

If the earlier stuff was so bad, then why is all the new stuff based upon it?
All great handgun cartridges, and levergun cartridges as well for that matter, work better than their ballistics would indicate. There is a little black magic in each and every one of them, that-as SIXGUNNER says, defies our ability to quantify them. Someone once said that good mysteries keep life interesting.

This is not to say that time should just stop and never move forward. Mr. Keith moved forward to create the cartridges he needed out of what he had, and modern performance handloading was born. We also should strive to find those elements that work to fill our own needs.

History can illuminate and guide us on our path.

....don't know their history are doomed to repeat it! I think that's close enough to the quote I remember. I agree, the good things from the past should be built upon to form the new things we will pass along to our future. Guns are no different in principle than they were when first developed, only improved to the versions we now have, some good, some bad.... Chris

this is one of my favorite topics. I'm one of those guys that carries the .38WCF (usually the one in the picture at left) on a regular basis as my concealed carry gun. I've had people look at me and smirk when they notice what I carry. I then ask them what they carry... I quite often get the reply "Oh, I carry a Glock 22, in .40S&W (in a tone that implies that I must not know much about the modern pistols since I am carrying one that is itself 104 years old.) I just smile and say "really?" and then ask them what kind of ballistics the .40S&W has. They can never answer, because they just went out and bought what was popular at the time. I then quote the the ballistics for the .40S&W, then follow it up with "Do you know the ballistics for the .38WCF?" Naturally they wouldn't, so I just quote them the almost identical ballistics for my cartridge. They start thinking about what I just told them... You start to see this look come over their face... And then when they look up at me and get ready to say "But..." I cut them off and explain to them that their round is ballistically the same as a round that has been in existance since about 1879, and that since I already had a couple of .38WCF's I didn't see the need to go out and buy the lastest ballistic fashion trend. (Of course, I don't tell them that my own company bought me a G22 for use as an instructor when working with the law enforcement agencies - that would take the fun out it!)"Yeah, but I have a lot more rounds for my use..." they will counter. I just smile slightly back at them and say, I've never found that I needed that many rounds to solve a problem, then I walk away.
I often have the same thing happen with someone carrying a .45ACP. Sometimes I'm carrying my little 3.5" Thunderer in my self-stitched and lined crossdraw holster (I'm behind the wheel alot so I like crossdraw rigs). I go through the whole ballistics thing again. It is actually kind of fun to burst the "I'm superior" bubble on some of these folks that look down upon those of us that carry revolvers. I admit, I've got a bunch of semi-autos... But they aren't pieces of artwork by any means (well mayby my Colt Government Model is, since it has the old real Colt Blue finish) and I really like to carry something that is as pretty to look at as it is functional.

My dad always used to tell me that "there is nothing really new under the sun, they just package it differently."  Once he told me that, I started paying attention as to what was going on in advertising in the gun world and realized he was right.  Especially after the FBI Miami shootout when the 10mm was introduced.  My dad and I were talking about the 10mm and he said (correctly so) that people would say "it's too hot" and that someone would shorten the case and call it something else.  We were both in agreement that if they wanted something better they should have just stuck with the .45ACP in a 1911.  I really don't think I would go out and buy anything else as far as a new caliber.  My "at work" guns (in .45ACP, .357Sig, and .40S&W) are just that:  guns that I need as an instructor for use on the range when teaching.  I have carried them for personal protection on occasion, but would have never gone out and bought the .357Sig or the .40S&W for my own satisfaction.  Under normal circumstances (with the exception of the .357 magnum in my model 13-2) I am carrying a cartridge designed at least 100 years ago...  And they can all do the job. 

Dang Raven!

That Thunderer made me drool all over my keyboard!

I gave serious thought to a similar setup for CC but "people in the know" strongly discouraged me.  The best compromise for me has been J frame revolvers with three inch barrels. 

That pretty little birdshead grip has me envious.  

I saw a Clint Smith/Thunder Ranch video where he said the choice of gun is less important than defining how one would fight with a particular arm if necessary. for the Thunderer, it probably not a lot different than my five shooter; maximize distance from the adversary and shoot carefully.

The revolver has been denounced as obsolete for decades. I recall an article written by Charles Askins (and rebutted by Bill Jordan) called Sixguns are Clunks. As far as the new calibers trying to replace the old, look at what rounds are dying fast. The .327, .45 GAP, the .357 Sig, and the .480 Ruger are all on life support. Why? Because they tried to replace the .32-20, the .45 ACP, the .357 Magnum and I have no idea what the .480 was supposed to do. The .357 Magnum has long been one of the best rounds out there and still is. It will do the job of any semi-auto round. I have been studying gunfights for a long time, and very few get past a couple of rounds. Polymer pistols sell, there is no doubt about that, but how much of that is hype created by magazines that have been pushing polymer for a long time? I would not feel at all undergunned just carrying around one of my Smith & Wesson revolvers, be it a .38 Special or my .41 Magnum. I have carried a Ruger SA and Colt SAA clone before in .45 Colt and would not at all consider myself in need of reinforcements. Recently I recall a forum discussion I got in elsewheres when a poster told me how could I possibly justify only carrying six rounds when I might need to fall back and defend my family from what ever might come? Granted 12-13 rounds is nice, but I really don't imagine taking on a horde of marauders or zombies.

From Sixgunner himself, September 2000 edition of American Handgunner:
 
One of the courses Clint has at Thunder Ranch is a pre-1900 course. Prior to setting up this course Clint lived with a single-action as he recounts thusly: "What if I had to carry a single-action? Two years ago as part of research and development program for the school's pre-1900 course, I carried a Colt caliber SAA for six months. It was a very eye-opening experience.
"One's application to the everyday carry and the possible application of this gun in a gunfight gives cause for a different kind of awareness level. You should always avoid potential situations that could create an environment where you or family members could be hurt.
"With the single-action in place for a defensive application, you are required to be even more careful about where you may use the gun for personal defense. Again the issue is not whether the SAA is effective but rather that it requires a much more alert and mechanically competent operator."
Clint is an expert with firearms, but note that he hits hard on two things when a single-action is carried. One must be even more alert concerning one's surrounding and be mechanically competent when it comes to both operation of and reloading of the sixgun. The single-action is not a bad choice unless one is unwilling to adhere to these two principles.
 
One of the things I like that I heard Clint Smith say one time was "You have to know how to run the gun you've got..."  That holds very true for SAA's...  But as I said somewhere else here on this forum, I started out with a Daisy SAA clone in "BB" caliber, and was taught how to get the first shot off smoothly, quickly, and accurately by my father...  Follow-up shots and reloads (reloads being the only disadvantage, unless you carry more than one , aka "the New York reload")  Must be practiced just as thoroughly as the marksmanship.  I've loved SAA ever since I was a kid and don't feel any more or less protected when carry a SSA versus one of the modern pieces of combat Tupperware. 
 
Quite often, the 3.5" Thunderer up there is my backup gun to my 4.75" Cimarron Model P SSA.  To top that off, in Tennessee, a Handgun Carry Permit holder (Tennessee's law is not written as 'concealed') can carry any long arm in their vehicle, provided that there is not a round in the chamber.  Now, that doesn't mean that I can carry it down the street with me when I leave the vehicle...  So I carry one of two long arms.  If I know that the vehicle will be in an area where it is not likely to be broken into, I carry a (pre-ugly safety button) Winchester '94 Trapper in .45LC, with a full magazine and an empty chamber.  If I am going to be in an area where vehicle break-ins have happened, I throw in my 1902 Iver Johnson "Champion" 12 gauge with the action open and an extra shell in the cup holder.  Now that old gun came into my posession for a princely sum of $25 at an antique store.  Mechanically sound, it had a 30" barrel that had been choked down so tight that it was a wonder it hadn't blown someone to pieces.  It sat in my safe for years as just something of a "oh well, it was worth $25" item.  Once Tennessee passed the new law allowing long arm carry by HCP holders, I knew what had to happen.  The barrel was cut and recrowned at 18.5"...  The stock was soaked in acetone to remove years of built up crud and then re-TruOiled.  A sling was installed, along with one of my home stitched leather ammo butt cuffs.  Total investment included the shotgun itself is about $40 and 2 hours.  If it was to get stolen, I can do another one of these on the cheap.  The 1902 I-J Champion wasn't rated for smokeless powder, so I use "law enforcement" low brass "00" buck - the low recoil round.  She groups about 10" or so at 20'-25'.  So handy it just slips right between the driver's seat and the console of my Excursion.  Granted, it doesn't have the nice ejector of a single shot H&R Topper (has extractors), but if you practice with it, it can be run pretty fast.  I once saw Clint Smith run a Topper about the same speed as most people run an 870.  Like he says, "...know how to run the gun you've got..."
 
My son calls this one "The Zombie Killer":

Black and white photo, but you get the idea...
 
If you had been a member of my family at Christmas of 2009, you would have gotten one of those ammo cuffs for Christmas.  I hand stitched and tooled each one for every shotgun owner in the family.  Even loaded the cuffs with low recoil "00" buck...  I'm just a dang nice guy!  ;-)    I finished this one in an "aged" look to match the I-J's rustic finish...  I didn't see any need in trying to make a (at the time) 107 year old shotgun look like a new one.  Besides that, it matches my saddle...   

 I don't have a nostalgic bone in my body. I judge things by what they are not what they were. Handsome is as handsome does. I wouldn't have any interest in a 44-40 or 38-40. If I want a .44 I want one that is readily available, has plenty of components available, uses durable brass, is capable of more 'modern' ballistics whether I choose to employ them or not.  I am not a big fan of 'maximum' loads but I like the option. For my use if modern .44 Special guns were available suitable for mid-range pressures (23-27 kpsi) I never would have purchased a .44 Magnum.

All the new issues of the gun funnies are gushing over the Ruger Scout Rifle. I always thought this was a bit too GI Joe to be for real, but if you look back, there was an almost identical version of this same rifle for sale by mail order 50 years ago for about $40. It was the Lee Enfield Mark V Jungle Carbine. The only difference is that the Enfield is nicer looking than the Ruger.

MW, I don't know if you intended the humor, but I found it anyway!
Most of us, I'm sure, are aware that the reality of gun magazines, including American Rifleman, is to instill demand, and get gun people to go and buy a new gun. Now, this isn't at all bad-but the methods used are sometimes bordering on the absurd. Why anyone who chooses a bolt action rifle would also choose the mount the optics out on the barrel is beyond me, yet today this is paraded around as though it was an idea with some merit. Similarly, if the purpose of a scout style rifle is speed of deployment, then what is exactly the point of the bipod? Seems to team up with the scope to create a barrel-heavy weapon, which is the antithesis of a well balanced gun-a fundamental characteristic of a true fast in action gun.
What it really seems is that this scout rifle is the same old bolt action with some fun doodads and a faddish grey stock. I'm sure they will sell many of 'em.

And, how often have you and I needed "speed of deployment"? I think if that was necessary, I would grab the old 1892 in 32WCF of the BAR with four loaded mags of 7 MAG. Like you, I think placing optics on the barrel is a bit outre. Oh, well, if I came across one at a great price, I might grab an Enfield Mk V. But not for rapid deployment or playing GI Joe. Just for fun.
 
Mike

the way all the gun funnies have started acting like the main reason to own a gun is self-defense. The only time I ever did self-defense I used my trusty tanto. Worked great.
The only ones that have stuck to the subject have been Handloader, Rifle, and Slack Powder Cartridge News. The rest all act as if we need to defend ourselves hourly from the Hordes. The only hordes I see are the Hordes of fat ladies at Walmart. Pretty scary.

Workman: Most of my shooting is plinking and target shooting. I am as prepared as anyone to defend myself but I tend to agree with you that 99% of my use is for recreational shooting not self defense. I have on occasion fended off a varmint or two but that's been it so far, knock on wood! Chris

When my wife and I were young and first married, we lived in Havre, Montana. We had a little red Porsche 356B. I was a compat weapon controller for the Air Force, and she was my young queen. She decided to take a night school course in sewing at the local college.
She would get home about 9 PM three nights a week. I convinced her to carry my antique nicle plated H&R breaktop 38 S&W, just in case. One Firday night she came home and said, "Well, I used the pistol tonight." very matter-of-factly. I asked what happened. She gave a big grin and told me.
She was driving home through a road that went around the college. She had stopped at a stop sign when she heard the passenger side door open. She looked over to se a rather inebriated college boy in the passenger seat. He looked at her and said. "Where we goin', Sweetie?". She said she just reached in her purse that was on her lap, pulled the pistol, and pointed it at him with one of her pattented looks of disgust. Apparently, he decided to go home. Didn't even close the car door like a nice boy. My wife's comment was, "I didn't know anybody could crawl that fast. And it wasn't even loaded.". He was lucky.

I've been in some tight spots at times in my life. I'll say this much, when the bullets fly, I don't stop and wonder what kind they might be, just how close they came. I don't claim to be an expert, and I don't claim to be able to advise anyone else, but I will say, for me, when the shooting starts the gun I know and trust is way better than the tricked out gun rag special they make you think you need.
I do think that a certain amount of proficiency in weaponry is what we all are about. In capable hands, the sixgun is effective for personal defense. I also think that the needs of a civilian, vs. some form of state sponsored combatant, are unique. For one, civilians don't have heavy weapons, or other state sponsored combatants to call upon for immediate assistance.
Most people will never have to suffer through a self defense situation, and this is as it should be. We all should be happy that we live in a relatively peaceful society, and that our love for sixguns can transcend the essential self defense scenario. After all, a true self defense weapon need not have deep blue, fine stocks, or a sense of aesthetics, yet these are some of the things that endear us to sixguns.

Finally, MW, very good point about the current grim focus of the gun rags, and Chris, I agree that the highest good for our sixguns is to shoot for fun!

MSWorkman,

"The only hordes I see are the Hordes of fat ladies at Walmart. Pretty scary". Dang that had me laughing!!!

You are right about the Ruger Scout looking "GI Joe"--A flash hider and ten round mag on a .308 bolt gun!

I have and greatly prefer the Savage Scout. I bought it when I realized a Win 1894 for hard daily use was no longer a good idea. Tried a 1944 Mosin Nagant  for a while but could not get the precision site picture I wanted.  The Savage  lacks the bling, but is easy to carry around on the tractor for Winter woods loafing (without the bipod). Its one of the few bolt guns made today with decent iron sites from the factory.   I cannot imagine what circumstances in my daily life would warrant needing more than 4 rounds of .308 or a flash hider.  

I have to shoot a lot in economic self defense--- mostly groundhogs and possums or coons in the chickens, feed bins, etc.  Even the best DA  (or "safe action" whatever that means?)  autos cannot match a cocked hammer and easy SA trigger pull. 

I quit reading most of the gun mags too. If you have not heard of it, one I  do like is the Backwoodsman magazine.  Good history and some good articles on more obscure guns once in a while.

Cowdog;
I am jealous of your ability to have groundhogs to shoot. When I was in college in Maine, my favorite relaxation was hunting groundhots on the dairy farms. It was win-win because the farmers loved to see me coming. I used a 1931 Schmidt-Rubin chambered for .308 and a Herter Powermag sixgun in .357. Hunted them in Pennsylvania before that but with a bow since I was too young to buy a sixgun.
I have seen Backwoodsman on the stands but never read it. I'll give it a try. I like Traditional Bowhunter, also.
Mike
 

I own guns for in-home protection and carry a concealed weapon.  That's all I got to say 'bout that.  I'm new to this forum and have gained valuable information from this forum as well as others.  I'm presently casting my own boolits for my .45 colt clone--An Uberti 1873 SAA, and reloading for it and my 9mm C9.  My Uberti is just to cumbersome to carry, although I'd rather carry it than my 9mm because I like big bore, large caliber handguns.  WRL

I know I'm new here and a bit late in the conversation.
The 38WCF is no slouch and had been stated already is the ballistic predecessor to the 40 S&W. If you are to take it into the modern era of pressures and guns, as John Linebaugh has done, you will get a whole new respect for it.
As far as the revolver goes for defense, simpilcity is quite attractive. It doesn't matter if it is a single action or double action. Your efficiency with the arm is foremost, and the most important shot is the first. After all, you cannot miss fast enough in a gunfight to catch up.
The little Charter Pit Bull in 40 S&W is really attractive as there is an absolute plethora of leftover brass on most ranges. Free components, yippie! If the thing works as hoped, I'll probably have to be real serious about one. This in no way discounts the other time proven cartridges or "oldies" as the Y genertation says,  It's just kinda neat.
I get a lot of looks when asked what I shoot in the 1911.  My load is a 255 gn Cast flat nose at about 750-800 fps. Most young'uns ask why so heavy and slow, well it duplicates the old 45 Schofield ballistics which cannot be all bad.
 
Todd
 

Glad to have you onboard. I shoot moderate loads in my .45's, both Gool Cup ACP and 45 Colt New Frontier. They work just fine. Chris

Figured out for myself that we had a modern counterpart to the 38-40 in .40S&W. Went one step forward and used the Lyman 40143 mold that had been hollow-pointed.   This mold is for the 38-40 but does well in the self-loaders. Sent this HP bullet and the 175 gr. 401463@ 1000 fps- in 40 S&W.  These bullets worked wonderfully in several handguns. Currently I'm working up appropriate alloys for the .357, 40 S&W and .44's hollow point molds.  Took some flak for taking my carry classwith-"a cap and ball revolver-  a 45 Colt Ruger with 5 1/2 barrel from cowboy shoot days. Explained  you did not have to shoot a bunch with a 45 Colt.

Viv a vis the 45 Colt. As one of the local ambulance chasers says in his advertising, "One call, that's all". I can't tell you how many encounter reports I have read over the years of some bad guy firing 17 rounds from his 9mm only to be conked over the head with a pipe wrench by his adversary. I guess we are lucky that the bad guys are mostly pretty stupid. Never read one that had multiple rounds fired from a 45.

It's hard to hit anything when you have your gun sideways.

The reason guns are held that way is;
That's the way it comes out of the box!    dude, like, yaknow, Hello

That's mostly the style of shooting here in Mudhole Mississippi. I had a guy fire his 9mm 14 times at one of my employees who was sitting in nis car. Range: 3 feet. Results: On scratched shoulder. My guy jumped out of his car and ran 11 blocks to the hospital. It makes you feel like just grabbing the gun, twisting it out of their hand and plugging it where the sun don't shine. Thet watch too many movies on BET, I guess.
 
Mike

I have really shot a lot of the "modern" calibers; however, my interest is turning to old "bottleneck" cartridges.  And speaking of carry guns, one of my buddies says that he has no need of a carry gun; his wife is with him everywhere he goes. And to keep her happy, at night, he turns on the backyard lights, and let's her out.

I guess if she cooks good there's no problem..... Chris

Talk about rough language; my wife can kill a mule at 50 paces just by cussing it out.