Lyman mould 454424

If you don't get any help here, there are a couple of Keith purists on our Elmer Keith Forum, might try posting there. Little slow but they'll get to you eventually!
Al

But have you checked out the RCBS 2 Cavity 45-255 mold?  Midway shows it at http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=740944
 
I don't think Elmer would have disliked this big meplated bullet at all...  In fact, its a whole lot more like the Keith design that is the newer Lyman 452424.  This will probably be my next purchase, as I am about out of my last batch of .454/260gr Keith's and those were cast with a borrowed H&G #501 (that I tried to buy but couldn't afford!) 

Al-do have an address for the EK forum? Would be happy to ask.

R.6,Thanks for the link.

I hope I don't sound obnoxious here, especially since I have never tried that RCBS bullet, but it appears to me that the dual driving bands look a little on the small side. The top driving band on the true Keith design also cuts, so it is important for that band to be wide. Other than that, the bullet looks good. Unfortunately, the irony of loosing so much in the wildfire is that I no longer have my shed for fire related projects, including casting, so a mold alone won't do much good-would need someone to cast 'em up as well.
Thanks for the replies.

If you havent found it yet, http://www.sixgun-forums.com/ElmerKeith
 

You might try the RCBS  45-270-SAA  It's a faithful Keith design. I like mine a great deal.
Frank

Frank,
Heard this bullet was designed by Mr. Scoville, who is well versed in cast bullets. Have to say, with the significant increase in bullet weight, would expect the powder charge to require a reduction as well, over the standard 255 gr. weight. Went a looking at powders today-no titegroup available, but they did have large pistol primers-finally!

Mak
This bullet works well with just about any powder suitable for the .45 Colt. I think is was designed by Dave Scoville, & it's a great bullet.
I like Titegroup, Unique, HS6, Herco, &  231/HP38.  
    I haven't tried it with Trailboss, but I like Trailboss for lighter loads in the 800fps range.
I do reduce the load using HS6, which I usually kind of use for a full power loading in the .45 Colt.
All my .45 Colt loads are kept to Colt levels.
If I need more power, I go to a magnum.
Frank

The Mihec clone of the RCBS 45-270-SAA has become my standard for the .45 Colt. I have it in both hollow point and solid point.
However, a REAL Lyman 454424 has been available from NOE (Night Owl Enterprises) a custom mould manufacturer. My mould is a five cavity and casts extremely well and has all the right dimensions (as originally designed by Keith as near as possible).
Dale53

I find them all the time on Ebay. I have been going to four cavity molds in order to ramp up production. I got a nice 454424 on Ebay for 67 bucks and a really nice 429421 for about $60. They sure put out the bullets once you get the rhythm. It goes something like Twisted Sister doing We're Not Gonna Take It Anymore.

The problem with Lyman's 454424 bullet is that they made several considerably different designs with the same number. When you pick up a mould, you don't know if you got a good one or not. Roger Smith covered this topic in detail in a fine, informative, article in the Handloader #260 (June-July 2009). My NOE mould has the "correct" design and is a dandy bullet. However, in the .45 Colt, I do believe that Dave Scoville's bullet (the RCBS 45-270-SAA) is about as good as it gets.

MAK, If you want to purchase cast bullets, try Missouri Bullet Co. at Missouribullet.com.  Theyoffer a 255 gr SWC at .452 die and a Brinnell of 18.  They come 400 to the box.  I ordered a couple of boxes but have yet to load them up and shoot them off.  The bullets look good via a visual inspection.
Regards,
Don
 

Isn't that a bit hard for a 45 Colt bullet? If your cylinder chamber mouths and groove diameter of the bore don't match, you could get serious leading. For many years, I subscribed to the 'hard as the holes of hell' philosophy of bullet casting. Purely by luck, my 1950 S&W 44 Spl was well match with my linotype .429 diameter bullets. When I bought a nice Cimarron Bisley 44, I got leading until I raised the load too high for normal use. That was because the cambers and bore were 430. The bullets couldn't upset at normal pressures. When I adjusted my alloy to Brinnell 12-13 and changed my sizing to 430, both guns shot well without leading.
For the 45 Colt, I use strictly Lyman 454424, the old model with square bottom lube groove, and liquid Alox sized to 454. Excellent performance with both a Berretta Stampede and an S&W 25-5.
Most of my shooting, now, is with cast bullets in both rifle and handgun. One of my better discoveries has been liquid Alox for lube, both Lee's and Xlox. How we do change as time goes on.

Just relaying the info.  Its up to the shooter to determine the bore die and the cylinder throats sizes.  Questions regarding the properties are best directed to Missouri Bullet Co. They may be able to decrease the antimony and tin and increase the lead to get the hardness down.

DK,
Thanks for the info. The problem is that all commercial cast bullets are not created equal. The key to the Keith style bullet is that standard powder charges work fine, obdurate the bullet, and make for a complete gas seal with a softer alloy. This means one not need, as MW pointed out, drive your bullets with a higher pressure. Remember, higher pressures wear guns faster, and pressure spikes have been responsible for all kinds of bad things.
Second issue is that just about all .45 Colt commercial bullets are sized at .452". These work fine if your cylinder throats are within a couple thousandths of this mark, but in my own case, most of my shooting is done with throats that are significantly larger. The result of using bullets seriously undersized for the cylinder throats include sub par accuracy, and all of us are accuracy bugs, are we not?
My physical circumstances remain unchanged, and we are still attempting to navigate the terrain after the engineered disaster we endured. I will continue to search for suitable bullets, and as of yet, I haven't found them. The perfect bullet is the original Keith design, sized no smaller than .454, preferably sized to .456, and cast from an alloy similar to Lyman No.2, which allows the bullet to form a gas seal at less than 20, 000 psi.
Such a bullet is fine for target, or more serious work. I remain somewhat surprised that with all the technical advancement regarding the shooting sports, it is so obtuse a project to secure correctly cast Keith bullets.

MAK;
I first started shooting center fire revolvers when I was about fourteen years old. Money was scarce and even tho' I could buy ammo wholesale I realized that I had to cast my own bullets and reload if I was going to be able to shoot the quantity that I wanted. Elmer Keith's little blue book "Sixgun Cartridges and Loads" was my bible. I rapidly learned to cast bullets and along the way learned to tailor them to my needs.
If you want really good cast bullets cast at the diameter and from materials you prefer, the only way is to learn to cast your own. I highly recommend it. I have been casting bullets and reloading for over sixty years. I am still VERY active at the sport and flat LOVE all parts of it.
 
YMMV (but I doubt it(:>)),
Dale53

Correct, you of the long name. But, my gist is that, at least here in Mudhole, MS, the long soaky winter is a great time for casting the coming year's bullets and thinking deep thoughts. I am of the old, Scots persuasion that I can probably do most things as well as they can be done if I know the drill and have the right equipment. I notice that Missouri Bullets can also supply the 45 cal 250 gr. in 12 BHN. However, it is a bevel base job, and I don't like those. Good, Old Elmer designed the 454424 and the 429421 as flat bases because he thought that was the best shape. I ain't gonna argue with what works.
I found a nice old 4-cavity 454424 with handles on Ebay for $60. It took a while, but, in my opinion, it's hard to beat. The rest is a melting pot, Lee 454 sizer, and some Lee Liquid Alox. All told, less than 1000 bullets would cost from Missouri, and the supplies last indefinitely except for the lube. I would sure rather that than to sink a bunch of bucks into production bullets only to find that I didn't like them. The 4-cavity molds sell like hotcakes if you want to try something different.
I would recommend that anybody shooting big bore sixguns go to http://castboolits.gunloads.com/forum.php and look in on the guys who do this all the time. Better than washing the outside windows or the siding.

Mike

The old adage is, if you want it done right do it yourself, yet I doubt if anyone here has had to rebuild their entire lives. Shooting is important, but not near as important as other more primary needs. The facts are, everyone can't cast their own bullets. Some of us have space, neighbor, and other constraints. This is simple reality. If you don't suffer from such constraints, then it is best to consider yourself lucky, or perhaps blessed.

Mak,
I appreciate the issues.  I have a 45 cylinder from Ruger that requires a .454 bullet and the Missouri is 452.  I inquired to them and that is what they offer so I am considering ordering a mould from a mould maker.  I am trying to decide if I should get a 2,3 or 4 cavity mould.  Also just because the physical constraints are fixed, loading a few and test firing may prove that the undersized bullets will do ok.  It all depends on what you consider acceptable accuracy.  Will a dime cover the hole, a quarter, a silver dollar?  Good luck on your search.  If you do find them please let me know.

DK,
Certainly, I will post here if I find anything of note.

However, while acceptable accuracy may be subjective, practical accuracy is not. If your shooting requires you hit 8" circle at whatever distance you shoot, then placing your shots there is real practical accuracy. BTW, the ability to hit an 8" paper plate at whatever distance is what I was told was acceptable hunting/defense accuracy-to that distance. We are not discussing carefully placed shots with the gun in a rest, or over sandbags, we are talking real life conditions.
The .45 Colt is not just one cartridge, its really many, because its purpose, loading, and use has changed so radically over the years. Dimensions of .45 Colt guns have also varied all over the map. Today the standard cast bullet found anywhere is a round nose flat point bevel base with one or two grease grooves, cast at a BHN of 20-22, sized to .452". These bullets can shoot well enough for plinking, if the gun has throats and bbl. dimensions close to the diameter, but when this is not the case, they will launch repeated fliers, and POI will often vary widely. It won't matter if you weight every charge, double check your crimp, rigidly adhere to consistent brass length and seating depth. In fact, nothing you do to make quality hand loads will mean a darn thing.
I've gone through a number of .45 Colt wheelguns because their dimensions made the kind of shooting I discussed above impossible. Today, due to loss and other factors, my current .45 Colt gun is a New Service tattooed with an array of British proof marks, originally chambered in .455, later returned from British military service in WW1 and recut to accept the .45 Colt. The Throats measure .456", and the slightly pitted barrel is right about .451". This gun is accurate with bullets sized close to throat dimensions, cast soft enough to obdurate to throat size and form a complete gas seal. Shots wander when the bullet diameter shrinks to .452", no matter the alloy.
I don't understand why the industry is fixated on .452" diameters, and super hard bullets, since even tight throated guns will shoot well with larger bullet diameters and softer alloys. All I can conclude that it is based on ignorance, and misinformation so often circulated.

I agree the RCBS bullet 45-270-SAA is likely the best bullet for the .45 Colt. I am having a lot of fun duplicating the old original .45 Colt load  using the Lyman 454190. I think it's the original bullet Lyman designed in the 1800s & shoots really well in the .45 Colt.
Frank

The RCBS 45-270 looks good to me, but the hangup would be that it seems to come in only a single cavity. Life is too short fo me to mess with single cavity molds for handguns. I would cast all day and shoot up the whole run the next. Guess I will stick with my Lyman 454424 4-banger.
Mike

Lyman mold 454190 is not the original bullet used in the .45 Colt, but it does closely follow the profile of the originals, including the lack of a crimping groove.  Lyman's rendition is a solid flat base, originals were hollow base.

Thnks Mac I seem to remember the HB now.

Mworkmansr

My Wife found a double cavity RCBS 45-270-SAA for me for Christmas in '10.
Frank

Frank,
 
How do you like the RCBS 45-270-SAA? It's a good looking bullet, and the double cavity is nice. I have never used RCBS molds, just H&G, Lee, and Lyman/Ideal. Oh, and a bunch of Dixie Gun Works round ball molds. And, I guess, my NEI .577-750 for the elephant rifle. I have a new brass mold for 45-546, but I haven't tried it yet.
As a result of this thread, I looked up custom mold makers who make multi-cavity molds. There are several who make 4-cavity in 44 and 45. The Lee 6-bangers work well, but they don't have a bullet I like as well as 439421 or 454424. I love the 4-bangers because I can turn out quite a pile of bullets in a couple of hours.
I didn't shoot much revolver last year. Just too much going on. The curse of retirement is when both wife and hubsnd are retired. The wife always thinks I'm doing nothing, so I get lists of yard-serf stuff. This year, I'm going to get back on the beam. I set up a target frame at 45 yds, and gongs at 70 yds and 285 yds. The gongs are AR500 steel so they are good for anything short of the mountain howitzer.
Good Shootin'
 
Mike
 

mworkmansr
I really like the RCBS 45-270-SAA. It's an accurate bullet (I cast mine out of wheel weights) doesn't lead, & really slaps things. I shot a Rabbit with it at about 40 yards one day & could hear it hit Whhaaacckk, & it just slapped that Rabbit down. I'm using Colt level loads too! I don't think you'll be dissapointed.
Another mould & bullet I like is the Lee 45-250-FP, it's a RN FP with a meplat you can almost dance on it's huge & shoots well also.

Frank

Frank,
I love it when I can hear them hit. I think, for pistol bullets, a large meplat is essential. I remember in the 60's I was stationed at Amarillo, and I used to go up to the Red River to hunt coyotes and jackrabbits. I had a Colt New Service 45 Colt then. I hit a jack at about 30 yds with it, and his head just popped off and rolled down the road. My brother was highly impressed.
I was single then, but I was assigned a bird colonel's house since the two B52 wings had left, and there were tons of open houses. I was skinning a coyote in the rose garden one afternoon when two young boys belonging to the major next door came over to watch. They asked me what I did with the meat after I skinned things. "I give it to your mothe, and she cooks it up." A few weeks later, I was at a party with their parents and told their mother what I had told them. I thought it was funny; she didn't. "You SOB. They haven't eaten any meat for weeks, but they wouldn't say why." One of my narrow escapes from an angry woman.
I'm anxious to get some non-sloppy weather so I can get back to some pistol shooting. I'm just finishing up a set of ivory grips on a Beretta Stampede, so I will have some incentive.
 
Mike

All this talk of molds and casting makes me wish I had the opportunity to cast my own pills. Well shoot, I don't, but if any of you casters ever have an extra batch of bullets sized .454 or larger, I'm your huckleberry, ok??????????????

MAK;
You poor thing. Not able to cast bullets? I live in God's Hellhole, but at least I ca cast and have plenty of lead. Send me your address and I will get you some 454424's from my old 4X old that was made before Lyman started playing with the design.
So far, I only use it in a Berretta Stampede that I caryy everywhere, but I love it. I size to .454 and use Lee Liquid Alox to tumble lube. I just finished my Ivory Grips, and when I showed it to my veterinarian, it was loaded. He looked at the end of the cylinder and said,"God, that's a big bullet". Kind of takes the starch out of them guys with the 9mm's that they hold sideways.
Mike

Hey MW... I got a chuckle out of that-BTW, were you discussing the bill at that time??????
Check your pm, hopefully it made it through.

Nice offer Mike.
I'm sure he will enjoy shooting some good cast bullets.

Frank

Making progress on my quest for getting back into casting my own bullets.  Obtained a 4 cavity mould for the above referenced bullet but the samples were cast with 30-1 and weigh in at 255 grains, substantially heavier than the 238-240 grains.  Waiting to determine if a different alloy is the answer or send the mould back for a retrofit.  I cast some bullets 20-25 years ago and my notes indicate that I used 1/2 lead and 1/2 linotype and they weigh 239 grains.  I have since retired and no long have access to sheath lead and all the print shops no longer use linotype so I will have to purchase commercial cast lead.  Wheel weights are not an option.  Rotometals offer a lot of different alloys and I can get straight lead and linotype and they can mix them for me or I can do it myself or I can purchase a 92 % lead,  2% tin & 6% antimony which will be close enough to the 50-50 mix.
I also came across the makers of the old Hensley & Gibbs moulds at Ballisti-cast. They can make the Keith style bullets in the original format for the 44 and 45 and I can get the 100 grains swc for the 32-20.  Very knowlegeable and helpfull with the information.  I will see how the moulds work out from them when they arrive in April.  Have to wait for better weather as I will have to cast outside now.

Well, the continuing story of Mak and the 454424. I sent him a small batch to try. Today, I open my mail and a little bitty wolf popped out. I thought, What the...  Why, I oughta... Couldn't figure out where I could have bought it. When I looked at the mailing label, I saw that it came from Mak. So, thnaks, MAK. I will be making more 45's soon. Let me know if they shoot well enough for me to set some aside for you.

Thanks, Mak

My sister-in-law did this bronze for me. Wish my brother was as talented.

My wife did this as a calligraphy exercise.

One of my droll Montana friends gave this to me. I guess she thought I had a future.

This hung in my BOQ room Havre AFS, MT in 1968.

Part of our Montana Memory wall.

Anyway, Mak's a real gent.

Mike

I saw that Frank is using the same mold as I am, Mihec 270 SAA, and Herco.  What weight Herco is anyone using?  I just got in a keg intending to use it for 45 Colt, but before I got the heavier bullet.

Didn't read the entire thread so forgive me if I'm out of line. Here's a couple 45 Colt items. All are great bullets but probably the 45-265-K is closer to what you want.
45-265-FN

45-265-K

45-290-K

Hello, Lynn

Nice Blackhawk, thanks for the photo and good to see you around the site.

Couple questions:

How fast do you think you could push these? Medium range Casull velocities 1300-1400?

Do you ever cast a Keith style 44 in the 250-260 gr range?

Thanks--

Al

I normally shoot air cooled WW at 1200 fps in my Smith 29. With casting alloy @ 15 BHN, 13-1400 should be fine. 
My standard Keith is 250 grains.

Looks a lot like the early 454424 Lyman with the square bottom lube groove. They are hard to find now. Took me about two years scouting Ebay to find a Lyman 4-banger in good shape. I use Liquid Alox and shoot them in 45 LC with 8.5 Unique.
I use the Liquid Alox on the 429421, also. Shoot it in 44 Spl at about 1000 fps and 44 Mag at 1350. No lead and great accuracy.
I plan to try the lube on the 577 NE when I cast some more bullets for it. 61 gr. 4759 puts it out at 1800 fps. Regular sticky Alox doesn't lead, but I have to apply it by hand, and it'd gummy, messy, and odiferous. Also, it messes up seating dies so that they have to be cleaned often.
I used to believe strongly in linotype bullets, but in the past few years I have come to the conclusion that proper diameters and lube will prevent leading and allow a softer bullet which will perform well on game.

For all of the folks that like Mr. O send him a thank you note for signing into law as of June 2014 you will not be able to buy Ivory across state lines.

Well, for those of you able and willing to cast, its no problem, but for those of us who cannot, it seems that Montana Bullet Works, and Dry Creek, both have closed their doors. Add to this Mt. Baldy shutting down, and the choice of cast bullets is pitiful.
For some unknown reason, bullet casters all seem to think that .45 Colt bullets MUST be sized .452". Yet darn near every .45 Colt made, except maybe for those pinch throat Rugers, works better with .454" or even .456" diameters. Further, who shoots bevel base bullets and actually LIKES them?!? Funny, all these shops churning out boatloads of bullets must be going somewhere, but where it isn't going is to set any standard for performance.
Then, we have the super hard cast conspiracy, whereby every bullet must be cast so hard that it can scratch glass.

I've wasted hours on the phone, and more hours on the 'puter, following empty promises of..."if you don't see what you need, just ask"...Its pretty amazing that today, with all the knowledge that is available, the number of functionally illiterate people who can't understand what makes bullets shoot.
I know, I haven't visited this thread in a while, and things do change, but in the world of good cast bullets, its getting pretty grim out there. Now, if you are someone who'd  rather shoot machine made junk, you are in paradise.

Drop me an email with your needs. Have a friend who's taking the business over.
lah at suddenlink dot net

MAK;
I haven't cast anything except 577 Nitro bullets since last year. When I do get some time, I will send you some more 454 Keiths. You should just suck it up and find a place to cast. If you use the right flux, it won't stink and smoke. If you tumble lube, you won't need a lube sizer. Works for me. Keep on shooting.
Check out https://www.youtube.com/user/kamasutraguy/videos to see how much fun it is to shoot big bore.

Mike

For those casters that use wheel wts. scrounge as many as you can as they are on the endangered list. The EPAss--les are trying to save us from ourselves again by banning them and changing to zinc.It must be a country wide mandate as they are getting hard to find in Montana and Communist Kalifornia banned them about 3 yrs. ago. I don't know if you can even buy them in a scrap yard as they are now considered HasMat.

My friends who did have the willingness, space, and interest to cast have all passed on. Here's a hint, if you are involved in gun stuff with your buddy whose wife not only doesn't understand, but doesn't approve, when he passes away, your value will move from tolerated to not tolerated very quickly. And, if your gun buddy happens to have a kid who does not respect what his father was into, don't expect to be treated any better when the inevitable arrives.
As I've said, I have certain limitations, and constraints that simply don't allow me to cast...

LAH, can you provide an email to contact you?

I am looking for a true Keith bullet, sized .454-.456, which will obdurate at standard .45 Colt pressures to form a complete gas seal. I am partial to the Lyman 454424 at 250 grains, before they messed with it. Even at standard, or slightly above pressures, the Keith drives deep and straight, cutting a sharp circle in whatever it hits, all this with a less than perfect bore. However, at this point, availability being what it is, I am flexible enough to try different designs, as long as they feature the critical Keith components; WIDE driving bands, Plain base, Crisp SWC shoulder, Wide meplat. If possible, I'd prefer to stay under 280 grains. Thanx ahead of time.

MAK;
Ballisti-Cast produces the old Hensley and Gibbs bullets. They have a mold that is identical to the good old Lyman with the flat bottom lube groove. If you haven't tried them, give them a call.

Sorry about your buddy. That is not an uncommon situation, though.

Mike

MAK;
You might try Desperado Cowboy Bullets. They say they cast soft, plain base bullets. I didn't see 454424 on their list, but maybe...

Mike

For a plain base bullet that might bump up would be the Lyman 454190.
I've had great results with it. You might have to cast soft to get them to do so.
I have friends who shoot black powder cartridge shillouette matches & they are casting 1/20 & 1/30, their bullets bump up & you might have to go that soft with smokeless.

For those that are getting into casting or thinking about itI suggest you order LBT's booklet on bullet casting written by Veral Smith. I think it is still in print. He is in Moyie Springs, Idaho. He makes excellant moulds. His bullet style is not a traditional Keith style but he will make what you want to your specs. His LFN and WFN style are accurate and excellant hunting bullets. He has made my moulds for yrs. and have never been dissapointed. I imagine he will make any keith style you want. His lube is excellant and his booklet explains how to take the measurements of your handgun or rifle so your mould will be a perfect fit for your gun. I bought a RCBS 270 gr. SAA mould and find it to be a good bullet in my flattops and lever rifles.
Several yrs. ago[more than several] I got tired of feeding my pot and my moulds getting cold while the lead came up to heat I bought a lee bottom pour pot and fabricated a stand to piggy back on my RCBS pot. I made an extention from the lee spout to the RCBS and started feeding and fluxing in the lee pot. When the RCBS pot would get a little low I would feed it from the lee pot. That way I didn't lose time waiting for my lead to heat up. I did the same with my Waggie pot when I was shooting BPCR comp.
To you gents that have been at it a while you have already done this. Thought it would give an idea for the newcomers wanting to get in the game.{ If the EPA doesn't find out about us}

I'll suggest also along with singlesixj's recommendation, that the Lyman Cast Bullet Manual is a great one & only has loads for lead bullets.

Well guys, thanks for the replies.
I don't see how I could begin to cast, unless I alienated even more people in my life, and as you might have surmised, they are starting to dwindle in numbers. Comes a time where the wants take a back seat to needs, and If I ever need to piss off my diminishing circle of people, at least I have a way here-casting-to do it with a bang.
Suppose I'll get back to the search, and chase down those leads as time and energy allows.
We have one heck of a thing going. Can't get powder, bullets, or ammo. Cost of guns is climbing, as if a gun is any better than a rock or a stick if it has nothing to shoot. I see a time close at hand where performance is going to be forgotten in favor of anything that can be cobbled together to sort of work.

Sometimes I think those who died knew what was coming, and they bowed out while there was some dignity and humanity left. On the other hand, even a strong horse gets worn out from always pulling the cart. If I had any sense, I'd sell everything and pick up peanuckle, only thing is, I'd miss the report.