Need help to identify 38CAL on my Colt SA

Rick, if you haven't already done so you should join the Colt forum. They have access to all kinds of info about Colts. The forum is not a Colt factory forum but a private forum of Colt lovers and collectors. Chris
http://www.coltforum.com/forums/forum.php

Thanks Chris. I all ready set up an account with those guys and have been communicating with them. I have hit a brick wall with all the contradicting comments I`ve been getting on there forum. Some of the guys there say there was no such caliber as this 38CAL as marked on my gun. Others say there were but few were made. Some of the comments were even very negative and even somewhat nasty. I told those guys that if the gun was refinished or even rebored somewhere along the way I don`t care at all because if it was, then who ever did it was an artist and master to say the least. I`m just happy that I have this very "pretty gun"in my collection to mingle with my Rugers. Whats strange is that I got this at a big gun show last week. It was actually in a USFA box. The dealer told me that it was a pre-owned USFA pre war black powder frame and that the gun is in new un-fired condition. I paid 500.00 bucks for it and was happy as heck that I got a 1200.00 dollar USFA custom revolver for that price simlpy because it was pre-owned. I called USFA Co. the next day and asked if they would send me a manual for the gun. They asked for the serial# and then told me they did not make this gun. The guy told me this was a Colt serial number and asked what was on the top of the barrel. I told him Colt`s PT.F.A.MFG.Co. Hartford CT. USA and he told me I have a genuine Colt. I then called Colt and they told me the serial# is theres and puts the Colt made in 1881. They are now doing the resurch and I will be getting there "letter" in a few weeks. This will tell me if it was rebarreled some where along the way. I really want to know about this caliber because I want to reload with black powder and take it for a shoot. The USFA guy told me its most likey 38COLT but I need to find out for sure...............Is your head swimming by now??????????? mine has been all week. No matter how it turns out I don`t think I did wrong with this purchase. I added a photo of the gun in my previous message. Just have to click on the link. At age 55 I am not up to par with digital camers and pasting and stuff like that. I`ll take the old days................
Respectfully,

Hi Rick, sorry for the boys at the Colt forum, evidently some Colt lovers are snobby! I however am not or at least hope I'm not so I will continue to help you along on your caliber hunt. I straightened your picture out below, that is a great looking gun. Since Colt says it is one of their BP guns that is great. Hopefully the search they do will fill in some of the blanks about what the gun was when it left the factory. I am not real up to date on all the Colt 38 caliber cartridge variations but I would start by trying some empty cases in the cylinder and then measure the cylinder chamber throats and slug the barrel to see what bore size and such is. Use only pure soft lead slug to size bore, oil bore push soft lead slug through it and carefully micrometer measure for bore size. A 38 will be somewhere in the .357 range but if it is an odd size maybe a bit different. Throats vary but the cartridge case should fit the chamber and not stick out or hit throat area. If you can't find cases to try then measure the cylinder chambers with a gauge (Pin type) and the throats too. That should at least give you some dimensions to match up to cartridge drawings. Chris
 

 

The most logical cartridge would be the last drawing, the 38 Long Colt. Next would be the 38-40. I think the 38-44 would be a little long but ??? who knows. There is also the possibility your gun was rebarreled and chambered for the 38 special later on. I don't know if I'm helping or adding to the coinfusion. Let me know how you are doing. I borrowed these drawings off the net so if I am steping on anyones toes I apologize ahead of time. Chris
P.S. I forgot to mention that the 38-40 uses a bigger bullet as per the case mouth size on the drawing so it's bore would be larger than a 38.

 
 
 
 
 

 
 
 
 

 

Thanks for the info and diagrams. I brought home from work a .357 pin gauge to see how it fit in the bore and the cylinder. I did not think to bring a few more for a higher or lower fitting but here is what i found out from the .357 pin gauge. The gauge will not enter the bore. Its just a tad big. The bore size is about .356. The pin slid into the cylinder hole nicely with just a slight play putting the cylinder at about . 358. I will bring those extra pins home tomorrow for an accurate measurement. The pins I use at work are too long to measure the chamber "where the bullet actually enters the barrel". This tells me that this is definately a 38. I think this could very well be a 38 Colt or long Colt. With this gun being a pre war black powder frame it may not be 38special but who knows. Last week I emailed Guns Magazine and told them all about this purchace and the info I would like. I emailed photos and added the serial# also. Today at work an email popped up from none other then Jeff John, editor of Guns Magazine. He said they were looking into it and I should here from them by Friday. Thats pretty darn cool..... In a few weeks I should get the letter from Colt which will tell us if this was the caliber when it left the factory. I`m taking it to the gun shop where I make my rounds and get the throat measurements and such and the exact length of the cylinder which should lead to the best 38 brass length to reload for and what powder size. I will keep you posted........and thanks very much for your help. I too am not a Colt expert and this is a cool learning experiance.  I have had a long love affair with Ruger revolvers but I keep that hid from my wife.

Glad you are making some headway. Keep me posted as to your discoveries and I await news that you are ready t o start shooting your gun. Afterall, you wanted a shooting black powder gun and that one may well be able to shoot some mild smokeless as well. I think Mike Venturino put out a book on SAA shooting and it may well be worth while finding a copy, he may even have some left.  Hope you enjoy your gun, I sure would. Chris

Colt actually created three different 38 cal. cartridges, although two were the same, with a redesign. Today these are generally referred to as the 38 Colt, 38 Short Colt, and 38 Long Colt. It is, in my opinion, a mistake to attempt to discover the cartridge by measuring the throats/bore. A much better method is to seat actual factory cartridges, and here's why-tolerances were then, as now "ballpark" figures. Variation existed then, and exists now.
The 38 short/long are the same cartridge. The short used a nominally .380" diameter outside heeled bullet-similar to the 22lr. The long was the same cartridge with the brass lengthened to encase an inside lubed bullet nominally of .350" diameter.  The 38 Colt was a smokeless offering only, and therefore too late on the scene for your SAA.
I highly doubt your gun is chambered for the 38 WCF round, as SAA barrels would NOT omit the WCF.  Side note-Colt Lightning rifles often left off the "WCF" suffix when chambered for the popular Winchester rounds. Therefore, I do believe your gun is chambered for the 38 Long/ Short Colt cartridge.

A gun of your SAA's age should be checked with factory ammunition. Unfortunately, I no longer have access to 38 Long Colt ammo, but others should.  Remember, Colt did not warrant their guns for smokeless until AFTER serial # 192,000. THIS MEANS IF YOU SHOOT IT, DO SO ONLY WITH BP LOADS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You have certainly been blessed with this transaction.
Dies & components are available-tho not readily. The 38 case is NOT the same as the 38 Special we all know and love. I believe Mike Venturino loads the 38 Long Colt. Look him up, I'll bet he can point the way.
Best wishes. Take care of your jewel.

Mak makes a good point about possible original cartridge chamberings but neglects to reflect on the possibility your Colt was rebarreled and re-cylindered to a 38 Colt or even a 38 Special. Back in the early part of the 20th century Colt single actions were common and often gunsmithed to varying degrees. Elmer Keith went through any number of Colts experimenting and modifying them to his demands. Colts were often rebarreled and it is entirely possible your Colt was so modified. That would be of concern to a purist collector but you want a shooting gun and don't intend to pass it off as a collector grade gun anyway so even if it was rebarreled and modified it is of no consequence in your case. It is also possible it was modified by the Colt factory and such would be possible considering they often didthat kind of work on request, in which case you may be rich! Although the serial number of your gun indicates it was made in 1881 or there abouts that doesn't mean it couldn't have been upgraded to a 38 Colt or something, there are black powder frames with new cylinders and barrels shooting smokeless ammunition. Is that a good practice, I don't know but people did do those things so it is a possibility. As far as measuring your chambers and throats, it may not help but it will tell you what you have as far as needing bullet sizes and such and help when you reload so I would measure them anyway just to know. I suppose until you know any different I would restrict loads to black powder. And since I don't know much more at this point I will refrain from any more advice until you hear from Colt. Chris

Chris, it is true that this gun could very well be retrofitted-and thus could be currently chambered for other 38 cal. cartridges. Thus my statement of trying factory cartridges. One will discover quite quickly what will-or will not chamber.

However, even if the barrel/cylinder were of current steel one has the issue with the frame. Before the advent of alloys capable of withstanding repeated, jarring pressure spikes, guns were made of comparatively soft metals. The beautiful color case hardening we sigh over today was a process intended to harden frames, to make them more durable.
It is not enough to keep smokeless loads at black powder pressure levels, because the propellants are entirely unique in nature. Black powder is an explosive, smokeless is a chemical transformation into a gas. The only way for black to deliver more force is to use more of it, and even big cartridge cases cannot pack in enough black to break even modest smokeless velocities. Smokeless, on the other hand, is far more volatile. I also believe that black has a different type of pressure signature, vs. smokeless. Yes, it can be a pain to make sure you are using static free reloading equipment when loading black, and the temptation is always to go the easy route and use smokeless, but the many true stories of even careful reloaders blowing up irreplaceable guns should be enough to dissuade the rest of us. DO NOT FIRE SMOKELESS AMMUNITION IN ANY GUN DESIGNED FOR BLACK POWDER.

Mak, as always , you are mostly correct. If you reread my previous post I only stated some old BP guns were modified to shoot modern smokeless loads but I never advocated that as good practice, only that such guns did exist. I also stated that until Rick knows all the details of his gun and it's heritage he would be wise to use only BP loads to be safe. I am no expert on old Colts or any other old gun and never intended to be so. My advice to Rick was to measure and check in any such way he could to help determine what he has and as such didn't rule out any other method as being better or worse.  I hope this clears up any perceived confusion. Chris

Chris has given some great advice as there were many conversions that took place. And as Chris stated, don't fire anything until you know exactly what you have. And even then you have to load in accordance to the "modern" powders they had at the time of the conversion which will require some research as well. It will get much easier after the exact chambering has been figured out. Its easy to get mixed up and confused when there are some posts that contradict the good advice you have already read because the person doesn't fully read or skips over some good, common sense  that has already been offered. If this gets to be too much for you please PM me as I will make you an offer for that gun that will show a considerable profit to you. Please don't forget to show us what the letter from Colt states, very cool find and I'm glad the gun went to an appreciative person.

Good advise guys. Thanks a bunch. I just ordered Mike Venterino`s book on Shooting Colt single actions of the old West all styles and calibers. I`m sure that will be very good reading. I love all the work he doe`s for Guns Mag. I do intend to load with black powder only in this revolver. I am fine with handling black powder as I deer hunt with a Pennsylvania flintlock long rifle and did Civil War reinacting for many years. Went through a heck of a lot of powder in those days. It is very possible that this gun my have been converted to .38 somewhere along the line. If so it very well may have been Colt that did the work as the barrel and clylinder have that very nice Colt armory bluing or "smoke blue as some coyboys call it". Someone sure loved this gun. And now I do... I placed a .357 mag. bullet in the cylinder just for a test and it fit perfectly. It did not fit flush in length however with a little less than a quarter inch that would not insert all the way. This is precisely what it suppose to do. 38 specials cylinders are designed to not let a 357 mag be inserted fully into a 38 only cylinder "for safeties sake". I will take it to the gun shop this weekend and see what the man says. Looking forward to the letter from Colt and hearing back from Jeff John at Guns Mag. I reload my 44 special Rugers and Uberte .45 Cattlemen revolvers with Unique and Trail Boss and it would be super cool to keep this Colt in black powder only as it was meant to be. Ive told the wife this means I`m going to have to order a nice Cowboy holster rig for this Colt just so I can dress it it up nice on Sundays.... Rim Rock Bullet Co. makes make very good quality old West style bullets for Cowboy action shooters. I checked to see if they make Cowboy lead bullets for .38 Cal and they surely do. I do have enough sense to wait befor I order until I have all the facts............Thanks again for all of your friendship.....You guys are  ones to "ride the River" with.