New Frontier questions

My NF is a 45 Colt with the 7 1/2 inch barrel from  the middle 80's and is a 3rd generation. I suppose the cylinder bores are a bit oversize, Colts did run that way, but it still shoots. A lot of shooters worry more about the bore than the cylinder sizes and plenty of guns shoot respectable with oversize cylinder throats as long as the bullet is sized to the bore, so I never worried about fitting new cylinders or anything. The rear sight looks like the one on my National Match Gold Cup and that's an Eliason but I wouldn,t know for certain about the NF sight, it works well, so thats all that matters. I haven't seen any of the New Frontiers out yet (supposed to be in May sometime) so I don't know what they are like and the only tests I've seen are from the last Shot show and that's it. I have seen some regular SAA on line at one or two of the outlet dealers but no New Frontiers yet. Perhaps some of the other members have more on those new ones. I like the short barrel and don't see why it would be any less accurate and it would sure pack better than a 7 1/2. Chris

Colt has pretty much settled on the larger cylinder throat/smaller groove barrel combination. I personally think there a few reasons for this.
1) Factory cast bullet loads use a very soft alloy. Even at mild pressure levels the bullets expand to fill the throats, and then size down to completely fill the grooves. This makes for a very tight gas seal.
2) Despite all the bad press, a little skill at handloading and attention to detail can make a large throat/small barrel combination shoot way better than the reverse.

3) Colt has made guns this way for over 100 years, and people still buy 'em and shoot 'em.
I know for a fact that chamber throats several thousands of an inch greater than bore diameter can still shoot into tiny little groups. Is it better to have smaller throats? Sure, if the chamber itself is correctly cut. Colt uses the same computer controlled milling machines standard throughout the industry, the same steels, the same processes. I will say what I have said to many. Colts shoot. I have a pretty good range of experience with Colt guns, and I can attest that in real world situations, they will out shoot other, more highly touted guns. I know this is true because I have lived it. At least for me, this is central to the entire issue.
Has Colt made bad, or so-so guns? Sure, now show me any manufacturer who hasn't. The problem that Colt has is that people expect museum pieces that run in all conditions and exhibit no idiosyncrasies. My 1911 does have a beavertail that rattles if I shake it, but it in no way detracts from the accuracy or reliability of the weapon. For some, this is unacceptable. For me, it is small potatoes. The gun is more accurate than I, and I guarantee you I do not walk down the path shaking any gun.
My advice is to buy one, and live with it for a while. I think you'll like it.

Gents,
I may just try it, My past experience was with 45 Colt, I inherited my dads 3rd gen SAA and I must admit I havn't done enough load development with it.  I've only had access to Oregon Trail SWCs and Master Caster bullets a guy near my home town produced.
I have been pretty disapointed in the Colt so far, but then again, maybe I hadn't given it a fair chance.  To make matters worse I had previously owned a Freedom Arms 454 and I was addicted to "one Hole" groups at 25 yards. 
Maybe my expectations are unrealistic?

Don't be bummed out by initial poor results, expectations are what make it fun trying to meet those goals. The more you load and shoot the more you'll learn about each particular load and the gun. Some guns are just naturally finicky and may not meet some expectations but then one load may be just the ticket. That's when you feel like you hit the motherload! I don't know if I've seen too many guns that were so bad they wouldn't shoot at all, there are mechanical lemons, but by and large most will shoot half way decent with a proper load. I am definitely not hung up on real small groups as I just love to shoot and my favorite takeoff of the old adage is "Any day shooting, no matter how bad, is better than work!" Chris

Thanks Chris,
Not to change the subject but I couldn't bear to part with Dad's old Colt, I Lost him in 2008 and now  I have his S&W 29-2 , as well as the Colt SAA.  I just wish it shot better with the loads I have on hand.  My wife has so much planed for me when I get home, I'll have to sneak up to my loading room above the garage.
But I Like your quote, I may have to steal it,
"Any day shooting, no matter how bad, is better than work!"

Sgt. Henry
I'm not sure if the rear sight on the New Frontier is an Elison, it's not marked  but it's a good sight. I think it's reliable. I wouldn't hesitate to buy a new 3rd gen Colt. The 3rd gen. Colt SAAs I've examined & shot are good. The fit & finish is good as well as the timing. I haven't seen one of the new New Frontiers, but the older ones are very good. If the later 3rd gen Colt SAAs are any indication of what Colt is turning out now I wouldn't hesitatate to buy one. I think in a .44 Special New Frontier you'd have the almost ideal "Perfect Pacting Pistol" I think they are that good.
On the .45 Colt, my accuracy went WAY up when I went to .454 diameter bullets. I cast almost all my own, but do use Lazercast from time to time. My accuracy with Lazercast is pretty good, but it's better with my bullets sized .454. If you cast your own or can find some sized .454 I think you will be pleased with the accuracy. Don't try any Ruger loads in a Colt SAA as the cylinder isn't as strong, it's not weak, but not as strong as the Ruger. I'm happy with a 270gr SWC @ 830fps & the cases fall out of the cylinder if it's not too dirty. I also use SPG as my go to lube with most six-gun bullets & find it works well for both smokeless & black powder loads.
    Hope this helps some, good shooting.
Frank

Frank,
Which powder do you use behind those 270's? And yes, running bullets a little bigger-in this case .454", can certainly help to fill large throats, and thus improve accuracy. Until recently-like the last 20 years or so, I recall all .45 Colt bullets came in at .454, or larger. I don't know what has changed, but now just about everything is in the .451"-452" size.

Also, I find that most commercially cast bullets have two significant shortcomings-A bevel base, and an alloy that is excessively hard. Super hard cast bullets may be necessary when driving said bullet to magnum velocities, but in the case of the .45 Colt, the majority of loads will be below this threshold.

While it is not always the case, I believe bevel, instead of squared flat bases, make a sixgun bullet less accurate. I have seen both magma and lazercast, and their lines are usually bevel based bullets.
Again, in my opinion, the combination of super hard cast and bevel base will make it more-not less-likely to form a complete gas seal, thus making it more likely to lead, burn away at the bullet, and thus hinder accuracy.

Mak
I have a several of powders I like with the 270gr bullet. My most used is Hodgdon's Titegroup, that & Trailboss are used mostly for practice. Titegroup is the least expensive in our area & I use a lot of it. It's a pretty good powder too & I'd probably use it if it were the same price as several of the other powders.
For hunting & or use in Bear country when hunting, I use HS6 & Herco & Unique.
Those are the powders I use the most.
Frank

I have tried a lot of struff in the 44 Spl. My favorite for a long time has been 16.5 gr. 2400 with the Lyman 429421. However, I have latewly gotten into the versatility of Unique. 7.5 gr. in the 44 Spl and 8.5 gr. in the 45 colt over the 429421 or 452424 have been fabulous. If you get leading, your bullets may be too hard or the alloy may be to hhard. I used to lean on the adjustable sights, too. But, I have come to the conclusion that they are not necessary if you adjust to the proper load for the sights and stick with it. The new Colts look good. It's hard to beat the Colt blue. My money goes to the USFA with good blueing and bone charcoal case hardening. My pair was sent to Doug Turnbull in 2004 for the total catastrophe. I love 'em and love to shoot 'em. I just think the adjustable sights make the gun look a bit busy. Old guys like simple. Anyway, get what you like. That's what matters.

Nothing at all wrong with the USFA, they are great guns. My only hesitation is now the prices aren't all that far apart between the Colt & USFA, for the difference, I think I'd go with the Colt. The USFA is a great gun though.
Frank

So, Frank, you should go with what yut, I would go with the ou like. The Colt has the best finish in my book. Nobody has ever matched the blue. And, don't get me wrong, I have a couple of them. But I would go with the fixd sight model.
Mike

I have never had a USFA model but I do have the 45 Colt New Frontier and also the fixed sight Scout. I appreciate the packability of a fixed sight SAA but truthfully, I don't think I would pass up a New Frontier with the adjustable sight. The adjustable sight gives you so much more flexibilty with regards to loads etc. I would go with a New Frontier any day but there is still the problem of availability, no one has seen any new ones yet from Colt so far as I know so you may be waitng a long time. I think a used one would be easier to find but you will have to look around. The USFA target is also a choice if you can't get a New Frontier. JT talks about it in the 44 book.  Whatever you decide I don't think you'll be disappointed as it's hard to knock any good 44. Chris

Mike,  I like the Colts, the USFAs are great guns too, don't get me wrong, but the price difference just isn't enough for me to not buy a Colt these days.    
    I like several loads & I use them all. A couple are a little heavier, & I use them only if I'm in Bear country or hunting with a bow or rifle (mostly in Bear country). Was out scouting for Elk Fri & saw a tree with bear scratching on it. I stood up to the tree & stretched out my arm & could just reach the scratches. I'm 6'-3" with a 36" sleeve. I carry heavier loads then with a good hard cast bullet that hits right to the sights.

Chris
I don't think having adjustable sights are any liability. What I have seen for myself, though, it that once I have a fixed sighted handgun sighted in, I tend to use loads that are similar enough that they hit very close to POA in my gun. I tend to use similar bullet weights in the same caliber, & powder charges that are only 150fps or so different. Once sighted in, my gun is good to go with any load I use in them.  For me the advantage of fixed sights are that the guns with fixed sights are usually a bit lighter, & this can make a difference at the end of a 10 hour day when you've been on your feet all day in the mountains. 
    I also find I seldom change sight steeings on a gun once it's sighted in. The real advantage of adjustable sights to me is that they are ALMOST ALWAYS WAY EASIER TO SEE THAN FIXED SIGHTS. They are mostly sharper, more well definde, & a bit larger. They also don't tend to fade out in poor light as quickly as fixed sights do. 
If I wanted a New Frontier, I wouldn't wait for Colt to bring them out. I usually see several at gun shows & they are usually just a bit cheaper than a SAA. I'd look them over & pick one I liked in a caliber I liked & buy a 2nd or 3rd gen. New Frontier.  They are beautiful guns in their own right & are usually accurate, I think that's what I'd do. 
  Thanks for the interest.
Frank

Yes, Frank, I agree with that, I definitely wouldn't persuade anyone from buying a nice New Frontier. You are right about using loads that all shoot close to the same POA. I too love the sight picture of the adjustable rear sights. I find this especially helpful now that my eyes have so much age on them. I guess if you want a certain gun then you should go for it, after all, it's you who will be using it. I tend to experiment a bit so I like the fact I can change the rear sight blade to suit my experimenting. I guess I just like to tinker. Chris

Chris
I will never tell anyone not to buy an adjustable sighted handgun. (the possible exception might be a S&W J frame to carry in a pocket)  The very reasons you state is why they are so versatile! We all have our own purposes for carrying a handgun & mine might be different from yours. This doesn't make either of us wrong, just different in needs. A good Colt New Frontier is a joy to use, & if you get one in .44 Special so it can be loaded up just a bit, well now you have a very useful six-gun, that is still light enough to carry all day, & one that looks nice to boot.
Good shooting.
Frank

I HAVE TWO OF THE  NEW NFs A 7-1/2" .45 AND A 5-1/2" .44. I HAD TO TURN THENM OVER TO OUR PHOTOGRPAHER BEFORE SHOOTING THEM. BUT THEY ARE BEAUTIFULLY FINISHED AND FITTED.

I'm glad someone finally has some to prove they are being made. Sgt Henry will be anxious to get his hands on a 44 Special. Chris

Sixgunner
I am anxious to see your review & pictures.
Frank

Frank, thanks for the info. One of my favorite powders for the .45 Colt is Unique. I wish it burned cleaner, but I get excellent accuracy with it as it is.
I want to add my voice to the requests for a review of the New Frontier.
In terms of adjustable vs. fixed sights, I have to say that speed is with fixed, and precision is with adjustable. This is not to say that fixed sights are incapable of providing for a difficult shot, just saying that in my experience, a greater level of accuracy is available from adjustable sights. The reason, I believe, that fixed sights are faster is primarily because the eye picks up the front sight very quickly.

Mak

Try Titegroup, & Herco.
Bob Munden suggested I try Titegroup & I really like it.
For clean burning, if you don't need top velocitys, Try Trailboss, I really like TB
Good shooting.
Frank

GunBlast.com has a review of the Colt New Frontier in 44 Special. Sgt. Henry, FYI, it says it has the elaison rear sight so that is a plus. It looks like quite a nice Colt. Chris

Boge & Jeff Quin do a fantastic job on Gunblast. Haven't read this review yet, but am going to.
Frank

Anyone who can type can find GUNBLAST.COM, the site where the Quinn review is posted.
Having read through their review, twice, some interesting things seem to have come to light...
1) Colt has broken with the large cylinder throat tradition, something that if true will erase a lot of heat sent their way. Dunno if it is so for Sixgunner's test NF's. Hopefully he will let us know.
2) The action, tolerances, trigger, and finish are all most excellent. This will diffuse at least some of the nay sayers who like to claim that Colt does not make good guns.
3) The grips belong on a much cheaper gun. The important question here is...is Herretts still in business?

The new 3rd gen Colts ARE GOOD GUNS!
Frank