Ask Elmer about anything

This has quotes from Pink Simms, involving Wyatt Earp, and Clay Allison. Very interesting. It seems Pink Simms was the real deal. Elmer was lucky to have been trained by him, and had him as a friend. Noice the name Siringo in the story.

The True Story of Clay Allison and Wyatt Earp
Dodge City, KS
[Photo: Original photograph of the 'Dodge City Peace Commission' in June, 1883. Front, l-r; Chas. E. Basset, Wyatt S. Earp, Frank McLain, and Neil Brown. Back, l-r; W. H. Harris, Luke Short, W. B. Bat Masterson, and W. F. Petillon. This is the version with Petillon beside Masterson. All rights reserved. FCHS.]
Original photograph of the 'Dodge City Peace Commission' in June 1883. Front, l-r; Chas. E. Basset, Wyatt S. Earp, Frank McLain, and Neil Brown. Back, l-r; W. H. Harris, Luke Short, W. B. Bat Masterson, and W. F. Petillon. This is the version with Petillon beside Masterson. All rights reserved. FCHS.

One of the most written about events of the Old West is the "showdown" between Wyatt Earp, assistant marshal of Dodge City, and Clay Allison, rancher and self-proclaimed "shootist" from New Mexico. The San Francisco Examiner of 1896 and nearly all biographies of Earp have featured it in some fashion. Charlie Siringo talked of the incident in his autobiography, Riata and Spurs. A somewhat different version appeared in Robert K. DeArment's Bat Masterson: The Man and the Legend.

The issue of law enforcement was at the forefront of local matters in the summer of 1878. The Ford County Globe ran several items regarding the failure of the police to "suppress" thieves, confidence men, and robbers. The Globe also seemed to question whether this criminal element was under the protection of the police force. Frustration with the lack of enforcement of the laws against the tinhorn gamblers and their like had been apparent since September 1876, several months after Wyatt Earp came on the scene. The Hays Sentinel of September 20, 1876 carried the following: "The citizens of Dodge have organized a vigilance committee and last week the committee addressed the following pointed note to every gambler in the city; 'Sir: You are hereby notified to leave this city before 6 o'clock, a. m. of Sept. 17th, 1876, and not return here."

At the same time, the police were "buffaloing" herders with near impunity. An item in the August 6, 1878, issue of the Globe berates an unnamed officer for beating a Mexican prisoner unmercifully. "The policeman who pounded the Mexican over the head with a six-shooter last Thursday [August 1] night, did not display either much manhood or bravery. When we consider the fact that the poor 'greaser' was sitting on a bench almost helpless from the effects of a previous beating, we don't think that even a Dodge City policeman who is nearly the greatest man in the world, has any right to walk deliberately up to him without any provocations, and knock out one or two of his eyes." According to the Dodge City Police Court Docket, the arrested man was Guadelupe Flores for drunk and disorderly. Flores plead guilty to this charge. However, the police court docket contains this note: "But upon examination of the circumstances connected with the case the court finds that he is not guilty as charged and that he be discharged...." There can be little doubt that the court felt Mr. Flores had suffered enough at the hands of the Dodge City Police.

A meeting of the populace was called to discuss the inaction of the officers concerning the criminal element infesting Dodge. Even the allied Dodge City Times was wondering about the advisability of forming a grand jury to contend with the problem. Such was the dissatisfaction of the people during that summer of '78.

Concurrently, the cattlemen of Texas indignant about the perceived mistreatment of their men and were not about to stand for it. In a letter dated at Lewistown, Montana, September 30, 1934, cowboy Pink Simms wrote: "A drunken cowboy had been shot to death while shooting a pistol in the air in the streets of Dodge. He worked for, or at least, was a friend of, Clay Allison. Others had been robbed, shot, and beaten over the head with revolvers and the cowmen were indignant about it. It was stated that the marshals were all pimps, gamblers and saloonkeepers. They had the cowboys disarmed, and with their teeth pulled they were harmless. If they got too bad or went and got a gun, they were cut down with shotguns. Allison...[was] going to protest over the treatment of [his] men and of course the salty old Clay was willing to back his arguments with gunsmoke." The charged atmosphere around Dodge made an explosion a very real possibility.

Robert Andrew Clay Allison was already a western legend when he came to Dodge in 1878, while Wyatt Earp would not become famous for several years. The Dodge City newspapers noted Allison's comings and goings and the Kinsley Graphic of December 14, 1878, had this to say when Clay stopped there. "Clay Allison, well known on the frontier and western Kansas, but better known in western Texas, for daring deeds and the number of affrays with knife and navy he engaged in, has been to town for several days this week. His appearance is striking. Tall, straight as an arrow, dark complexioned, carries himself with ease and grace, gentlemanly and courteous in manner, never betraying by word or action the history of his eventful life."

Allison "notches" included Chunk Colbert, regionally infamous man-killer; Francisco Griego, another locally noted gunfighter; and Las Animas officer Charles Fabre. Numerous are the stories of his exploits, some fact, some fiction. All stories, factual or otherwise, led to Clay Allison being one of the most feared men of the west when he arrived in Dodge City, in September of 1878.
[photo: The 1874 view of Front Street, with (from left) Rath and Wright's General Outfitting Store, Beeson and Harris' Long Branch, and Hoover's cigar and liquor store. All rights reserved, FCHS.]
Front Street, Dodge City, 1874, with (from left) Rath and Wright's General Outfitting Store, Beeson and Harris' Long Branch saloon, and Hoover's cigar and liquor Store. All rights reserved, FCHS.

The first known written record of the Allison/Earp clash is an interview with Wyatt Earp published in the San Francisco Examiner of August 16, 1896. The pertinent parts of the article are these:

"And so Clay Allison came to town, and for a whole day behaved like a veritable chesterfield [perfect gentleman]. But the next morning one of my policemen woke me up to tell me that the bad man from Colorado was loaded up with a pair of six-shooters and a mouth full of threats. Straightway I put my guns on and went down the street with Bat Masterson. Now, Bat had a shotgun in the District Attorney's office, which was behind a drugstore just opposite Wright's store. He thought the weapon might come in handy in case of trouble, so he skipped across the street to get it. But not caring to be seen with such a weapon before there was any occasion for it, he stayed over there, talking to some people outside the drugstore, while I went into Webster's Saloon looking for Allison. I saw at a glance that my man wasn't there, and had just reached the sidewalk to turn into the Long Branch, next door, when I met him face to face. We greeted each other with caution .... and as we spoke backed carelessly up against the wall, I on the right. There we stood, measuring each other with sideways glances. An onlooker across the street might have thought we were old friends.

[photo: Long Branch saloon interior. All rights reserved, FCHS.]
Long Branch saloon interior, Front Street, Dodge City, circa 1878.

'So,' said Allison truculently, 'you're the man that killed my friend Hoyt.'

'Yes, I guess I'm the man you're looking for,' said I.

His right hand was stealing round to his pistol pocket, but I made no move. Only I watched him narrowly. With my own right hand I had a firm grip on my six-shooter, and with my left I was ready to grab Allison's gun the moment he jerked it out. He studied the situation in all its bearings for the space of a second or two. I saw the change in his face.

'I guess I'll go round the corner,' he said abruptly.

'I guess you'd better,' I replied.

And he went.

In the meantime ten or a dozen of the worst Texans in town were laying low in Bob Wright's Store, with their Winchesters, ready to cover Allison's retreat out of town, or help him in the killing, if necessary. From where he had stationed himself Bat Masterson could see them, but I did not know they were there. After the encounter with Allison I moved up the street and would have passed Bob Wright's door had not Bat, from across the street signaled to me to keep out of range. A moment later Allison, who had mounted his horse, rode out in front of Webster's and called to me.

'Come over here, Wyatt,' he said, 'I want to talk to you.'

'I can hear you all right here,' I replied. 'I think you came here to fight with me, and if you did you can have it right now.'

Several friends of mine wanted me to take a shotgun, but I thought I could kill him all right with a six-shooter. At that moment Bob Wright came running down the street to urge Allison to go out of town. He had experienced a sudden change of heart because Bat had crossed over to him with these portentous words: 'If this fight comes up, Wright, you're the first man I'm going to kill.' Allison listened to the legislator's entreaties with a scowl.

'Well I don't like you any too well,' he said, 'there were a lot of your friends to be here this morning to help me out, but I don't see them round now.'

'Earp,' he continued, turning to me and raising his voice. 'I believe you're a pretty good man from what I've seen of you. Do you know that these coyotes sent for me to make a fight with you and kill you? Well, I'm going to ride out of town, and I wish you good luck.'

Charles A. Siringo's very different account in his 1927 book Riada and Spurs, is often dismissed by historians due to lack of corroborating evidence (perhaps too, because his version makes Wyatt Earp look bad). As we will see, there actually is contemporary evidence backing Siringo's presence in Dodge at the proper time.

Siringo wrote:

"About the first of October eight hundred fat steers were cut out of my four herds and started for Dodge City, Kansas.... I secured permission [from owner David T. Beals] to ... accompany them to Chicago....

"A 25-mile ride brought us to the toughest town on earth, Dodge City. It was now daylight, and the first man on the main street was Cape Willingham, who at this writing is a prosperous cattle broker in El Paso, Texas. Cape gave us our first news of the great Indian outbreak. [Dull Knife's raid through Kansas.] He told of the many murders committed by the reds south of Dodge City the day previous - one man was killed at Mead City, and two others near the Crooked Creek store. "Riding up the main street Ferris and I saw twenty-five mounted cowboys, holding rifles in their hands, and facing one of the half-dozen saloons, adjoining each other, on that side of the street [Front Street]. In passing this armed crowd one of them recognized me. Calling me by name he said: 'Fall in line quick, h--l is going to pop in a few minutes.'

"We jerked our Winchester rifles from the scabbards and fell in line, like most any other fool cowboys would have done. In a moment Clay Allison, the man-killer, came out of one of the saloons holding a pistol in his hand. With him was Mr. McNulty, owner of the large Panhandle "Turkey-track" cattle outfit. Clay was hunting for some of the town policemen, or the city marshal, so as to wipe them off the face of the earth. His twenty-five cowboy friends had promised to help him clean up Dodge City.

"After all the saloons had been searched, Mr. McNulty succeeded in getting Clay to bed at the Bob Wright Hotel. Then we all dispersed. Soon after, the city law officers began to crawl out of their hiding places, and appear on the street."

Robert K. DeArment, from this account, deduced in his biography Bat Masterson: The Man and the Legend, that the incident must have happened on September 17 or 18, 1878. Used as evidence is Siringo's placing the affair at the time of the Dull Knife raid through Kansas, specifically Meade. The papers of the day make it plain that the killings at Meade occurred on September 16, 1878. Dodge City heard of the raid on Meade on September 17, 1878.

With more than 40 years separating the incident and the retelling, Siringo's estimation of the first part of October is only a close approximation. An item in the October 8, 1878, issue of the Globe reinforces the year and indicates that in all probability the event happened in mid September. It says D. T. Beals shipped 25 carloads of cattle to Chicago between October 1 and October 7, 1878. The same issue of the Globe shows Dick McNulty, the hero of Siringo's story, to have shipped 18 carloads of cattle from Dodge City to Kansas City the same week, putting him in Dodge at about the same time.

Now consider the following news item from the Dodge City Times of September 21, 1878. "There was a scrimmage Thursday night, [September 19] between some of the officers and the party that were going on the Indian hunt. Several shots were fired. One man carries a bandaged head and a soldier was severely wounded in the leg. A disgraceful row occurred in the afternoon, in which it is said the officers failed to appear [emphasis added]. These occurrences are the subjects of much comment on the conduct of the officers."

Is this reference to a "disgraceful row" on September 19, the extent of the reporting of Clay Allison's "hunt for trouble?" That "the officers failed to appear" is consistent the account of not only Siringo but another participant, Chalk Beeson.

I recently re-discovered an interview with Beeson, datelined Topeka, January 17, [1903] (Special). It seems to confirm the Siringo account. The interview is found in a Beeson family scrapbook on file at the Boot Hill Museum in Dodge City, Kansas. The originating publication is not identified.

Chalkley McArtor Beeson was co-owner of the Long Branch saloon in Dodge, city councilman, two-time sheriff of Ford County, and four-time state legislator representing Ford County in Topeka. He was described by one newspaper as "a quiet, almost noiseless man of medium size." His hometown newspaper once described Beeson as the "man of the hour." Indeed, the city of Dodge named a street after him many years ago. Here are the pertinent portions of that interview.

"Topeka, Jan. 17. (Special.) ... Chalk Beeson is dean of the outfit. He migrated to the Western plains with the buffalo.... 'The noted Clay Allison with his gang of untamed cowboys came to Dodge one day to start some trouble,' continued Beeson. 'They soon found it. Erp [sic] was marshal [assistant marshal] at the time. He notified the boys to be on guard. I saw that a clash was coming.'

'Dick McNulty and myself held a brief conference. Something had to be done, and done quickly to prevent a wholesale killing. We took our lives in our hands and went to Allison and his gang and told them, as friends, that they had better not start anything. We argued with them while the lines were forming for a general battle. They finally yielded and handed us their guns, which we kept until they got ready to leave town. After giving up their guns they were in no danger. No one there would be so mean as to jump on to them when they were unarmed. That was against the rules of civilized warfare as construed in Dodge.'"

The only mention by Beeson of Wyatt Earp is that he "notified the boys to be on guard." Notice also, that Dick McNulty is responsible for disarming Allison - Siringo said the same thing.

Much weight must be given to the account of Chalk Beeson. Mr. Beeson's integrity has, to my knowledge, never been seriously questioned. He was in Dodge on September 19, 1878.

These three participants--Earp, Siringo, and Beeson--all tell of Clay Allison coming to Dodge City hunting trouble. The reason for Allison's trip could very well be the one put forth by Texan Pink Simms; the mistreatment of the cowboys in general and the shooting of George Hoy.

From these three accounts, perhaps a likely scenario can be put together. While the Texan Siringo wrote of the cowardice of the officers, Dodge City partisan Beeson takes a different stance. A case can be made for the following reconstruction of events.

It would seem that Charles Siringo hit Dodge on September 19, 1878, where he heard the reports of Indian depredations south of Dodge from Cape Willingham. There he met an indignant Clay Allison, backed by his "untamed cowboys". Allison was intent upon getting to the bottom of the George Hoy killing while forcing the Dodge City police to ease up on his friends. Likely the mob went from saloon to saloon, maintaining their courage with whisky at each stop. As the anger increased, so did the fury of the protestations with all its accompanying shooting and shouting until it became a "disgraceful row" by early afternoon.

Knowing that 25 rowdy cowboys backed Allison, Wyatt Earp and policeman Jim Masterson (Bat's brother) began to assemble their forces. In the meantime, Dick McNulty and Chalk Beeson intervened on behalf of the town, convincing Allison and his "gang of untamed cowboys" to give up their guns. The gang then dispersed. Two participants verify this action on the part of McNulty.

While the gang was being talked out of their guns, the officers still had not confronted Allison and his friends. This inaction would have seemed like cowardice to Clay Allison and his gang, dereliction of duty to the townspeople. Therefore, we have the Globe of the 21st adding, "it is said the officers failed to appear. These occurrences are the subjects of much comment on the conduct of the officers."

There seems to be no evidence that any kind of showdown occurred between Wyatt Earp and Clay Allison per the Examiner interview. Neither Beeson nor Siringo mention anything about it. In addition, there is evidence that Robert Wright and Bat Masterson could not be involved. They were both out of town during the Dull Knife raid.

Evidence for a "conversation" between Allison and Earp is sparse. A likely scenario for this meeting is the one put forth by Pink Simms. "I also heard that later Allison alone found Wyatt Earp seated in the lookout's chair at a faro game and he told him in no uncertain terms what he thought of the way some of the cowboys were being treated." We have in this a highly believable proposition. Allison had no fear of being gunned down. As Beeson so eloquently put it, "[n]o one there would be so mean as to jump on to them when they were unarmed. That was against the rules of civilized warfare as construed in Dodge.

Mr. Beeson's story seems to enforce the one told by Charles Siringo. It is clear that for whatever reason, Wyatt Earp backed by Bat Masterson did not quell the disturbance. That honor must go to Dick McNulty and Chalk Beeson.

Additional Sources:
"Clay Allison, Portrait of a Shootist," by Chuck Parsons.
WPA Federal Writers Project. (Interview with Ida Mayer indicating her father met Siringo in Dodge in late summer 1878.)
Telephone conversation with Robert K. DeArment Jan 13, 2000.

(Ford County Historical Society, Inc., Dodge City, KS: Roger Myers, author, copyright, 2002)

Hope you guys enjoy this as much as I do. Unearthing Elmers characters is interesting, and a testament of the truth of his writings. No fake info there, all facts.

Gunsmith, that's a good story, too bad the pics couldn't be posted too, but what is your opinion of Earp? Was he good, bad or what? I have always wondered about him since I read his autobiography when I was young. Chris

I had heard that Wyatt sensationalized many of his stories especially in his later years. In his defense he went through alot.In the book I won,"Encyclopedia of Western Gunfighters" it also speaks of his ability to tell a story. It also states under professions of his" farmer,section hand,buffalo hunter,horse theif,saloonkeeper,gambler,bunco artist,sportsman?,law officer and prospector. It also says "because of highly conflicting versions of his career,no individual has caused greater controversy in western history than Earp" Just what I have read.Don

Good point Don, I don't think we in this age can judge a man from that past age and be totally unbiased. We haven't ever had to go through some of the things people of that time had to do just to simply survive let alone succeed as someone like Earp did. Whatever we think of him now is probably not close to what we would think if we had been around him in those times. As many historians have said, a lawman in the old west was just a thin line apart from a bad guy and the roles could often be reversed at any time. Chris

I have a new book on Earp, and it brings up a lot of interesting points. Clanton and company were no angels, Doc Holliday was no saint. The Earps were trying to get rich(like all of us, hopefully). They used the tools that were available to reach that end, quickly. Gambling, Prostitution,saloons, and intimidation.
The Clantons were doing the same, but they included robbery, and Murder to their tool rack. The fact that only 2 of the men at the O.K.Corral were armed, speaks of the desperate measures the Earps took, to take the Clantons and McLowery's out of the picture.
The charge against Holliday for stage coach robbery and murder was a frame up, and the County law was in on the frame-up.Not Docs style. Not the Earps either.

Interesting that Elmer knew a person involved in this mess, and took shooting lessons from him.

I have a new book on Earp, and it brings up a lot of interesting points. Clanton and company were no angels, Doc Holliday was no saint. The Earps were trying to get rich(like all of us, hopefully). They used the tools that were available to reach that end, quickly. Gambling, Prostitution,saloons, and intimidation.
The Clantons were doing the same, but they included robbery, and Murder to their tool rack. The fact that only 2 of the men at the O.K.Corral were armed, speaks of the desperate measures the Earps took, to take the Clantons and McLowery's out of the picture.
The charge against Holliday for stage coach robbery and murder was a frame up, and the County law was in on the frame-up.Not Docs style. Not the Earps either.

Interesting that Elmer knew a person involved in this mess, and took shooting lessons from him.

When I have some time, I'll look those photos up and edit them in to Gunsmiths post. How about a link?
Al

PS on the Earps, Lots of different stories, in Triggernometry it refers to Wyatt wearing some sort of armor plate under his shirt, likely wearing it in the famous river shootout with Curly Bill

Yes it talks about his steel protection, supposedly worn at the river shoot out. If Curly Bill was there or not, it was quite a difficult situation, and Wyatt got out of it by keeping his head, and making the shots count. Like Billy the Kid did at McSweens, when he escaped certain death, surrounded. I still do not think Garret shot him. I think He and Garret split the reward money, and Billico finally laid low the rest of his life. Too much sass coming from the Lincoln crowd about digging him up.
I just looked at a Lawrence no 120 holster,Keith design. I need one badly, but I will not pay the price these antique dealers want. I also need a 34a for the Smith 29 6 1/2 inch barrel.
Then I will have it made.

I heard(can't remember where)that a gun of Billy the Kids surfaced in Montana a few years back.The gun was purchased then disasembled for cleaning and finding numbers.And Billy's name was engraved under the grips followed by "New Mexico".Whether its true or not I'm not sure.Very cool if it were.I'll try to find the info.Always thought it would be a blast to go back and be a fly on the wall through some of this history.I'm not sure now the older I get if I could handle it.Bad blood pressure and all.

I found this site kinda interesting WWW.New Mexico.org/billy the kid.

I once had a Colt Thunderer come to the shop for repairs. It had been trashed a long time ago, and was sold at an auction to a friend of mine.
When I took off the grips, that were rusted to the frame, by the way, under neath were the following. W.Bonney. We checked on the serial numbers with Colt, and he got a factory letter on the gun. It ws sold in Lincoln N.M.1878. Ordered by one John Tunstill. It is in his private collection, and will someday be put on the block for sale. All I can say it was used hard, and put away wet. Whomever worked on it in the past new single actions, but had no idea how the Double Action worked.
A very neat peice of history.
Always check on any old gun you have,as far as history goes. You may be amazed at what you find.
That is how I got Karamojo Bells 318 Westley Richards double rifle. Checked on the provenance with the factory. and got a factory letter on it.

Did the buyer have a clue it was his or picked it up to have a thunderer? That is the stuff I love hearing about.Someday I'd like to come across something that has a surprise history such as that. Seems it would be worth a fortune. Was it in any working order at all? Many old white hunters would put a note somewhere between the stock and action saying who's it was etc..Whats the rarest gun you have had to work on or own?Or the most interesting and owned by a famous person? I understand you may not want to give details as to ownership for privacy issues,I just like the stories.

Billys gun was the best. The man is just a collector, and wanted a thunderer. He got the cream of the crop. It worked in SA, but the springs were fubared for DA work.
That and Karamojo Bells gun are the best. I also made the gun for the last Iniana Jones movie, and my wife made the holster. Unfortunatly they cut the pictures of the gun.

http://www.skyways.org/orgs/fordco/myers.html

Love the fact that classics are still turning up and thanks for sharing. Is there a book of serial numbers for smith and wesson or do you have to write for info such as year made? I have a few that have a cool story behind them but nothing old enough to warrant writing the factory.Also, what do you think of the Ruger LCR? I need to get the wife something smaller to carry in a small bag.I liked the Airweight she likes the Ruger.I'm kinda traditional, metal and wood kinda guy. Thanks for the help and stories.

Hey Guys: My bro likes to experiment and has tried the Judge, he likes it, and his wife didn't. So he tried an LCR and she likes it. As a side note they both had been shooting a S&W 357 with 38's and were indifferent because of it's size, 4" or 5" barrel, I think. The LCR seems to be OK. I personally haven't shot it but I've fondled it once when he brought it over to show me and it felt good in the hand, whether it will hold up,it's a Ruger. Chris

Well the Taurus Judge, to make things go fast, is a peice of crap, designed to take peoples money, and make someone that can't shoot feel like he is a big shot. It throws 45 L Colts out of the barrel sideways. The shot patterns are terrible. If you are using a short range gun, you would be better off with a derringer, properly chambered for 45 L.C. or ACP. Then it WILL get the job done.
A friend of mine has an LCR. Seems to like it. He carries alot, and shoots seldom. I think if you make up your mind to carry a gun, you should take the time to become proficient with it. These small muff guns are in the same league as the AR15. Just because it goes bang loud, does not mean it has authority when the business needs to be done. Kind of like digging a grave with a kids play shovel. Yes it is a shovel, and yes it will dig dirt, but you will tire out long before the job gets done. Get a gun that works right, first last and everytime. One that has enough weight to dampen recoil when firing a potent man stopping round, So you can be ready to deliver another if the situation demands it. A Smith Cheifs Special Airweight is too light for most hands, recoil wise. It takes a person that dedicates himself, or herself to the gun,before it is an effective tool. Better off getting a K frame Smith, or an I frame Colt. Then you will have a gun that will always preform when the chips are down. The Taurus WON'T. Just a cheap POS that is foisted upon the shooting fraternity. Taurus has a terrible reputation for repairs, a terrible reputation for quality, and a terrible design. It is nothing but a copywrite infringment on Smith and Wesson. Plain and simple. Remember you get what you pay for.
That is what I think, and know. Would not own either for a serious gun. Maybe if someone gave me one, I would put it in the box with the other Play guns. My 44 and others do not reside there.

About your wife carring her gun it a bag. If someone steals her bag, then she is without a gun, and a bag. Tell her NOTHING looks sexier than a woman with a good gun, in a good holster, positioned behind her hip bone, or in cross draw. Good jeans help, but the gun just does something that nothing else can. Then get her a good S&W M and P 4 inch, with an El Paso Saddelry holster, and belt to go with it, have it custom made for her, and tell her she is the most beautiful woman in the world when she wears it. Teach her how to conceal with proper clothing. You and she will live to enjoy your old age together. Other wise, maybe not. Simple as that.

EMK1161, you may be interested in the Brimestone Gazette ( www.brimestonepistoleros.com/gazette/index.html ) which has some good articles on the southwest, especially California, Arizona and Nevada. I started reading it about the Death Valley borax mines and it brought back memeories of my early days watching "Death Valley Days" on TV. Yep, I'm old! CHRIS

What, No one has a comment on my Taurus comment, or my women carrying guns comment? Shame on you.This is to make people think, and inform them of things Elmer, and I have found, as well as what others have found in there gun related lives. I guess everyone is shocked and spell bound by Elmers, and my great wisdom.

HI Gunsmith! Didn't know you wanted comments, but I will oblige. I don't own a Taurus but my older brother does, a Judge, and he rather likes it. No comment on it's reliability but he doesn't do a lot of shooting with it and he didn't buy it for defense, he carries a Ruger 45 acp for that. As far as women carrying I have no problem letting them wear their "holsters on their hips for all the world to see" ala Willie and Pancho & Lefty. Some, however, are forced by circumstance to hide their weapon in a purse or fannypack or maybe a bellypack. They do also make dress coats that women can house their weapon in without too much difficulty and still be assured of anonimity from the public at large. There is something to be said for concealement because then the bad boys have no idea who's carrying and who isn't so they may think twice before picking on someone. Chris

I agree that a jacket with a hidden gun pocket is handy, I have one my Wife purchased for me though the NRA. As far as fannie packs, it has been my observance that way too much clutter joins the gun, hindering its ultimate purpose. And Fannie Packs are out of style, so anyone wearing one is probably carrying. A nice high ride holster, with a light coat over it, looks stylish, and is very functional at a moments notice. A hand bag is the worst place to carry. Too much clutter(paper in the barrels, lint in the action, ect).
The Taurus is made for people that fire little, have little experiance with firearms, and think the bang is going to scare them, so I will just hit them with some birdshot, and send them scurrying on there way. In the real world, it does not work like that. Watch the web page on the Taurus Judge at "The Box of Truth" Very informative.

Gunsmith: I fear I am no match for your debating skills, so in the immortal words of Ed to Carnak the Magnificent, "I bow to your wisdom oh great Carnack". Chris

SIXGUN CARTRIDGES AND LOADS

FOREWORD

For the past twenty-five years I have experimented extensively with all of our available revolver and automatic pistol cartridges which are suitable for game shooting, defense or target work. Most of my early shooting was done with the old cap-and-ball Colts single action revolvers, or as we in the West are apt to term them “Sixguns.” I have seldom heard a revolver called anything but a Sixgun” or “Sixshooter” except during my two years of School of Instruction and participation in the National Matches at Camp Perry, Ohio. For this reason, I will probably term the revolver a “sixgun” more often than I will use its theoretical name throughout the following pages.

During most of my life I have had a good sixgun within easy reach at practically all time. Until 1929 I rode saddle broncs, packed, punched cows and ran trap lines most of the time; during much of this work a rifle would have been an encumbrance, so the sixgun was taken along instead. While punching cows, that sixgun usually fed my cow dog and very often myself as well. On some few occasions it undoubtedly saved my life, as well as furnished needed food for the table. Sometimes it was necessary to put a three legged horse out of misery, or to end the suffering of a hopelessly bogged cow critter. At other times, I occasionally encountered a coyote out in good open country, and when my cow horse could carry me within range of the little sage wolf, my sixgun ended his days. At other times it furnished the needed bait for lynx, bobcat and badger sets. Many times I have found little calves starved to death on the range because they had tried to sniff at a porcupine whereupon the quill pig had given them a rap across the face with his tail, filling their noses so full of the barbed quills that their mothers would not allow them to suckle and starvation followed. Several of my ponies have also had their noses filled with quills because they became too curious for their own good; so I always take time out to end quill pig’s existence with a sixgun slug.

Each year during grouse season, I killed a great many of these fine birds while hunting cattle. When a kid in Montana, I kept a record of the grouse killed with my old .32/20 S. A. Colt, which ran 42, 41 and 43 birds for the three successive years. The great horned owls were also often encountered, especially in the winter when riding along the little stream beds which were lined with leafless cottonwood and willow trees. During one single winter while at Durkee, Oregon I killed 32 of these birds with a .44 Special S. A. Colt, thereby saving the lives of a great many grouse, quail and rabbits.

I do not believe in hunting or shooting big game with a sixgun when it is possible to use the rifle; nevertheless, I have often encountered big game while out riding with no rifle along, or where a rifle would have been in the way and out of the question. On these occasions I have used the sixgun, killing seven mule deer, three elk, one mountain goat and one cougar with it. My early cow-punching days showed conclusively that while a sixgun was not needed for defense very often, when such did crop up suddenly, it was needed damn bad and the most powerful loads available were none too heavy then. Many times I have been wound up while roping off a green colt. At other times, I have been in equally bad positions by my horse sticking a foot in a badger or dog hole and turning a flip flop. On some of these occasions I have been pinned under the horse, at others I have been dragged for some distance.

Many time I have roped and dragged bogged cows out of the mud, then gotten down off my nag and “tailed ‘em up,” only to have the ungrateful critters ram their tongues out a foot, let out a beller and give me the race of my life if my horse was not within easy reach. Sometimes they were so weak they could make only a few short jumps and then pile up again, causing me to repeat the tailing up performance. Any old cow poke knows all about this, and the danger in it at times from half-wild range cattle. Cattle are run and worked today in much rougher country than in former years, being forced back onto the rough Forest Reserves by lack of the open ranges where they were formerly run.

My early sixgun shooting showed conclusively the need for better shaped bullets having more stopping and killing power, so early in the game I began my experimenting, trying to improve the then existing revolver cartridges by hand-loading them with various shapes or types of bullets and powder charges that were usually maximum. I occasionally tried out some weird combinations, and have had three sixguns blow up in my hand while learning what they would stand and still hang together. In all these experiments, I always tried those loads out on some sort of game or stock to find out their limitations. Finally I went so far as to design some sixgun bullets for the firm of Belding & Mull. Later I worked out some still further improvements in bullet design for the Lyman Gun Sight Corporation. These last bullets have proved so perfectly adapted my needs that I have been unable to develop any further improvements in their design. My bullets were not the result of a little catalogue reading, but the result of many years of study and actual use on the range on game and stock. I have spent a great deal of money trying out every new gun and load that appeared over the horizon, as well as considerable time in reloading and experimenting for each sixgun or auto pistol in order to find the best cartridge.

Owing to the fact that I have written a good many magazine articles on these subjects, my mail each month contains a great many inquiries on various handgun cartridges, guns, or their reloading and shows conclusively the need for a book devoted exclusively to sixgun reloading. In the following pages I will endeavor to give an account of as much of my experiments with different handgun cartridges as possible, and what I found to be the best cartridges for different purposes. I will endeavor to cover the reloading of such cartridges step by step so that the beginner will have a good working knowledge to start out with. This book will be devoted to the cartridges themselves and their reloading, while the different types of guns, their sights, holsters and use will be covered to the extent of my own experience in a companion book to follow later. The subject is too big to be completely covered in any one small volume.

My own experience has shown the advisability of beginners adhering strictly to light or normal loads until they have had plenty of actual experience in reloading. There are so many minute details that can cause excessive pressure, and so many things that will have to be actually learned by experience alone, that I consider it best for all beginners to start out with moderate loads. A considerable amount of my early experimenting was done by the cut and try method. With little to guide me, it is a wonder that I did not have some serious accidents. Later, I had expert coaching and I wish to take this opportunity of thanking the following good friends who gave unselfishly of their knowledge and experience to help me: Chauncy Thomas, the late J. D. O’Meara, the late John (Packer Jack) Newman, Ashley A. Haines, S. Harold Croft, John Emmett Berns, Ed McGivern, Pink Simms and Major D. B. Wesson. I also wish to give our splendid cartridge an powder companies due credit for much valuable data that would otherwise be impossible for any individual to obtain, as well as all the firms now making reloading tools. And I better also give Mr. J. R. Mattern a vote of thanks for his most excellent book, “Handloading Ammunition,” from which I have derived a great deal of help.

Elmer Keith

North Fork, Idaho

December, 1936

Gunsmith: That's a good article, I am not fortunate enough to have a copy of that book although I'm still looking. I think that more or less sums up the fact that Elmer spoke from years of experience and knew therefore, of what he spoke. Chris

We may need to scan some of Elmers more obsure books, and make them available for the public in modern form. Get the light out from under the bushel, so to speak. Big game has so much info in it, that studying it for years, I still see things I did not read before. Or I understand more about what he was saying, as I get older.

Spoke to a shooter today about loading a Colt SAA in 44 special. He was sizing his bullets 429, and getting lousy accuracy. I told him to size them 432. He said he is now getting 2 inch groups at 25 yards. I think this is the best he personally can do, as he is a shooter, but also a heavy drinker. And he says he can't see the sights very well.
If people would, as well as the factories, listen to what Elmer said, there would be less poblems in the world, more peace, and security. No one robbing homes, no country going to war. No one wants to face an enemy that is able to shoot well at long range. It would be suicide. No more genocide, if everyone was armed, and able to defend themselves against the NUTS of this world.
Elmer did what he could do to lead us on the right path. It is up to us to carry on.

This is link about John Newman. He was the real deal, in Skagway Alaska, and Seattle Wash. Interesting to see about people that Elmer wrote about.

http://www.lib.washington.edu/specialcoll/findaids/docs/photosgraphics/B...

I appreciate the info on Newman I have wondered who he was for years in fact just a few days ago I posted his name on another forum questioning a slip hammer gun. I believe Elmer only mentioned him in regards to the slip hammer and published a photo or two of him. Newman looked like he could be a nasty character.

Len, The comment on him possibly being a nasty character is exactly what I thought when I saw his picture for the first time.

He admitted to driving his pack mules until they were beaten, sore and maggot eaten and so bad they had to be shot! Not my kind of guy, that's for sure. Chris

This is a good article by Elmer on the 44 Special. Enjoy
The .44 Special

The .44 Russian is a very fine target cartridge, but neither it nor the .44 American which is now about obsolete, needs to be discussed here, as the .44 Special will do all that either of these shorter cartridges will do and a great deal more either on the target or for more serious sixgun work. I consider the .44 Special our finest large caliber revolver cartridge by a wide margin. It will do all that any .45 Colt or .44-40 will do and more. Any weight bullet that works well in either the .44-40 or the .45 Colt will do good work in the .44 S & W Special. The .44 Special will also give higher velocities with any weight bullet from 200 grain up to 250 grain or even 280 grain than will the thin-walled-cylinder guns chambered for either the .44-40 or the .45 Colt. The case, being straight, will withstand complete resizing and reloading a great many times. It is full as accurate as anything ever produced for use in a sixgun, not excepting the .38 S & W Special and is a great deal easier to hand load for fine accuracy than some .38 Special guns. Some may wonder at this statement but they will find the reason if they load the two cartridges for different guns of each caliber, especially if there is any variation in groove diameter from the standard. A variation of .001" is not so much in a .44 Special, but makes quite a difference at times in a .38 Special.

In 1927 I abandoned the .45 Colt for my own use in favor of the .44 Special, and have seen no reason to change back. I soon found that I could load much more powerful cartridges for the .44 Special than for any other revolver. These powerful hand loads extracted easily and shot more accurately than any .45 Colt I have ever owned or used. The factory .44 Special load is little more than a squib, with a velocity of 800 feet or less and owing to the shape of its round-nose pointed bullet, gives very little killing power. I have shot sage hens with Western factory .44 Specials and wounded them through the bodies, and then have them run off and hide themselves in the brush. Yet if you hand load this cartridge with a properly shaped bullet of 230 to 250 grains weight then it is a killer, and if a hollow point bullet is used, the same sage hens can be scattered all over the ground and torn up too much for table use. The 230 grain bullet can be loaded safely to 1200 feet and in long barrel guns possibly up to nearly 1300 feet with Hercules #2400 powder. The 250 grain bullet can be given a velocity of around 1100 feet with the same powder.

I once designed a 260 grain bullet for Belding & Mull, using their blunt nose shape and Croft and I also worked out a similar shape for the same firm weighing 280 grains, both for the .44 Special. These bullets were very good killers and quite accurate at reasonable ranges but did not do so well or tear as large holes as those I later designed for Lyman Gun Sight Corporation. Last, I did considerable experimenting on chucks, jacks and other pests with the .44 Special, handloaded with my 235 grain hollow point bullet and 18.5 grains of #2400 Hercules to see if it was as good or a better killer than the .357 Smith & Wesson Magnum. In all cases it proved to be a much more powerful load and gave nearly twice the amount of destruction as the .357 Magnum, even when the latter was loaded with a 160 grain Keith hollow point bullet at standard velocity for this cartridge. Jack rabbits shot in the chest had their whole hind part or rear half blown away. On rump shots the front end of the Johnnie was completely torn to ribbons. I have never before seen such destruction of tissue from any sixgun or automatic pistol cartridge and really believe it is the most powerful handgun load in existence. I went up as high as 20 grains of #2400, but the cases showed some signs of pressure, not nearly as much, however as I had found with the #80 loads I had used for years. I found the limiting factor to be leading, the 20 grain load leading the guns badly with the bullet temper I was then using. A different alloy or grease wads might have stopped this, but at the time, I cut the charge to 18.5 grains, causing the leading to almost be eliminated. The pressure signs on both case and primer seemed less, even with 20 grains of #2400, than with the same bullet and 13 grains of DuPont #80 powder. The velocities were much higher, as was clearly shown by the expansion and killing power. The recoil was heavy, although not unpleasant in a Colt Single Action or in the Smith & Wesson with the new S & W Magna grips, but after some fifty rounds was very unpleasant in the S & W gun with the standard style of grips.

I have handloaded a great many heavy .44 Special loads for friends who have killed elk, bear, moose and mule deer here, and one sportsman took some to Africa and kept twelve men supplied with antelope meat with my 250 grain handloads in a S & W .44 Special military model with 6 1/2" barrel.

The consensus of opinion among the most experienced sixgun shots of this country indicates that the .38 and .44 Special cartridges are the best of all from any standpoint for the handloader particularly. These two are made in greater quantity than any other revolver cartridges; hence, more experimenting has been done with them than with other loads, and they are held to closer tolerances in loading. The guns chambered for these two loads are also held to closer tolerances as to groove diameter and chambering than most other sixgun calibers. To get the best out of them, they have to be handloaded, as all standard factory loads for both are very light and offer a high trajectory curve with very little actual stopping and killing power. Nevertheless, they are accurate in the extreme.

Elmer Keith

Sixguns Cartridges And Loads

December 1936

Gentlemen, I have always enjoyed learning about the people mentioned in the books that I read , and Elmers books are full of interesting people. This thread has helped a lot. Thank you.
P.S. Gunsmith I believe I have handled Mr Corbetts rifle that you spoke of. It was at a gunshow in Monroeville, I belive, rifle was made by T. Bland if I remember corectly.I hope this is not out of line.
John

I'm the same way, look up Fanny Sperry Steele.Her neice has a site about her that is very informative and very interesting.Not many people left worth learning about.(in this day and age)

Glad to see someone else getting interested in our little forum topic posts. We need more people to chip in with comments, good or bad, Not too bad though, or any thing you think is interesting or neat, and don't worry about us being to critical either, we're a pretty easy going bunch here. Chris

EMK1161 The rifle belonged to W.D.M.Bell. I am glad I met you at the show. I was the guy with the BIG BLACK COWBOY HAT. Had long hair at that time. I still have the gun. I am writing a book on Bell, be done someday.

Sorry I had a brain lock, I ment to say W D M Bell. I was suprised at the time because I assumed any .318 was a magazine rifle. Never figured on the brits chambering that round in a double. Of course they did. Glad to have met you sir, and I'm really enjoying this thread.
John

Picked up a book today titled Outlaw Tales of Montana. Theres stuff about Simms and many others that have been mentioned by Elmer. I'll go through it and let someone else have it. Don P.S. may be spring by the time I get to it.

Elmer is getting FAMOUS. He is featured on this very long You Tube video. The shooter is Hickok44. Good shooting and info.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRNDoVjFQJM

Gunsmith: You gotta quit lookin at that stuff, YOU'LL go blind! Chris

And here I've been complaining that I can't see my Redhawk sights? Time for fiber optics.

I watched the video and I appreciate the tribute to Elmer but the guy doing it wasn't real swift I didn't think,I thought his gun handling left a lot to be desired both safety wise and shooting wise, he seemed a bit unfamiliar with his gun. Maybe he was just nervous. Don, those fiber optics can be addictive. Chris

Appreciate the attempt,shoulda slowed down a bit.Couldn't sit through it all.Probably did alot better than I could have though.There would be too many bleeps on mine to understand anything.I do agree that there are many people out there that enjoy shooting and the .44 mag.Yet I'm amazed at the people that don't know the origins or the developers of the sports they enjoy.Whether it be calibers,cars and horsepower etc.etc...I gotta go hang lights now,my wife said so.

You been hanging lites for a week or more, be careful! My distant neighbor's house burned down yesterday,his wife and kid got out ok but dog didn't! They speculated it was the Xmas lights on the front of the house but they won't know for a while. Stuff happens, stay safe Don.

Go ahead, make your house look like "Christmas Vacation". Have fun
I think the gentleman in the video knew what he was doing with the 44. And he was very used to it, and others. He seemed very knowledgeable, especially with the reloading aspect. He had read Hell I Was There! more than once, and the same with Sixguns. I did not see any dangerous gun handling, I must have missed it. Yes it is a long video, but covers a lot of material, that is good for the further interest in Elmer Keith.
I can't beleive a soft bound copy of Hell I was There is going for 300 dollars. All his books are out of sight price wise. Our library had every book, but they are all stolen now. What a shame.
Is anyone loading 44s lately? Lets here from someone on their reloading efforts.

I don't know, maybe I just thought he was a little nervous. He seemed a little shaky when he was shooting and then opened his cylinder and saw he still had a round left so he said he would just fire it off so he could empty his gun? He seems to have more videos besides that one, I will have to view some more, as a general rule I,m a little leery of anything I view on Youtube. Some of the videos are staged or photoshopped like the one with the guy getting a watermelon shot off his head, very bad! What do you think Gunsmith?

Gunsmith: I guess I should be a little less critical about other peoples gunhandling or video info clips. I, however, would like to know if your spirited defense of that video is because of conviction or are you somehow related to that person doing the video? Just curious and you need not answer so don't be offended. Chris

no relation to me. i think the guy is just trying to educate the populous on what a handgun can do, and tell people about Elmer. That is all. He has a lot of videos.
Just on a side track, I was shooting a Cobray M/11 the other day. Very accurate, and the 9 mm was a very flat shooting round. Dropped it seemed as much as a 22 at 100 yads, which is 3iches. I was able to hit a 6 ich gong wih every shot at 100. Just wondered if anyone else had had that experiance. I hought the M/11 would be a POS. but I guess I got a good one. A little large for carrying though. I have a shoulder holster for it, but te strap goes in front of my chest. I guess I could carry it under a coat. Maybe I will do hat tonight. I can see it now, something happens, and I pull that thing out. SUPRISE.
When I lived in the city,I had just bought an SKS, This was in 1982. They were about 75 dollars then. When I came out of the car, a bunch of darker children and adults were like normal, all over the street, hanging. One yelled out, THERE IS A WHITE MAN WIF A MACHINE GUN. The street was instantly empty. I got a good charge out of hat one. They never bothered the house anymore after that either.

Is anyone interested in this anymore? no comments for a long time.
Just got the tapes from Bob D'Olivio, cassettes of Elmer in Africa. 2 1/2 hours of Elmer talking. Will get them on CD, and we will sell them here for the fund.
Just read Letters from Elmer Keith. What a good book. I loved the picture of Elmer's little shack in Durkee Oregon. And I mean a SHACK. Wonder if there are any bullet holes in it. They should make it a National Monument. That is where it all began, where in 1924 he wrote his first letter that eventually got published. I guess nothing else to do in the winter.
Wonder if there are any outhouses with bullet holes in them left? I hope he checked to see that they were not occupied when he perforated them.
He and Jack O. were really enemies. Reading Elmers side, I want nothing to do with anything 270 Jack wrote. I know Elmer never lied. So that means Jack was lying though his teeth 3/4 of the time. Taking Elmers stories, and twisting them to fit himself in.

Gunsmith... I've read the letters several times and find them facinating, Elmer's thoughts on everything from guns to people. I agree that Elmer really hated Jack since he relates the story of Jack pointing a loaded shotgun at him several times, I think it is a credit to Elmer that he didn't drop him on the spot! Don't be so impatient, some of us take a long time to comment on your writings, others right away, so unless you're getting tired of posting I wouldn't worry until they are actually tellin you to go away. Chris

The Forum has some good things coming up. All I can say now is everyone that is interested in Elmer, Shooting, or guns, needs to get on this Forum. We are about to blow the lid off. I have been working behind the scenes, getting this together. Al and I are both excited, many phone calls have been made back and forth.
Man is the book on Elmers letters good. Almost a shame he can never autograph it. His typing and spelling is downright honest, and sometimes difficult to decipher. But worth it. It is amazing how his writing long hand never really changed over the years. , and his signature is the same from 1924 till he died.
Still want some of you people in Idaho to find some of those outhouses. And a photo, and info on Elmer's house in Durkee would be appreciated. Maybe it could be donated by the current owner, and reassembled as a Memorial site. Or the building could be auctioned to benifit the Fund.
Just my 2 cents worth.
Hope you all are enjoying this.
Lets get on 44 loads, Nitro Express rounds,and Elk Hunting with 338's.