Ask Elmer about anything

I have pictures of the first house of Elmers in Durkee. I took them in Oct.and I really don't want people to go and take a piece for themselves or to upset the current owners.Thats the reason I havn't posted them. The first property is very much posted.The second piece he homesteaded with his family and you have to cross many other pieces that are also private to reach it. As for out houses, I know where there is one that Elmer built,you don't want it because it's still in use.And like everything he did its still in great shape! I don't want to sound like I'm keeping this info for myself I know I'd really be ticked if someone posted pics of my property on a site and everyone helped themselves. This in turn could have the possibility of making Elmer's fans look bad. I like where your going with this but am worried of the effects to the current property owners and hope you can see where I'm coming from. As for the book "Letters", I agree its a great compilation of letters. What many don't know about Elmer is that for a man that wasn't real tall and had about a size 7 1/2 boot, his hands were large.Very large. When he would hammer away at the type writer his fingers (being large)would sometimes hit more than one key. I didn't want people to think he was careless or sloppy so thought I'd explain that.

EMK: I agree, I have seen what scavanging did to my Grandmother's old farm when it was left untended, even just for a winter, and people can be downright unscrupulous when that happens. Leave the real "old Elmer places" alone and just remember them through his writings. As for his typing, I don't think it even is noticed as you read his letters because they are so interesting as is. Chris

Never would I recommend scavaging. That is for California nitwits on vacation. It would be interesting for the current owners ot donate the buildin to the NRA, or the Elmer Keith Museum Fund. That is if it is not being used.
Can you imagine Harold Croft, after taking a long trip out west from Phiiy, to realize that tas his desination. He must have thought, Oh S--t. What have I gotten my self into.
That is where Elmer invented the bullets, did his early writing, married Lorraine, and got the foundation for the life he was to have. All of us should feel like that is a special place, Almost like Mecca. I can see it now, we all bow to the West at the sound of a 44 going off. Call to worship could be a 500 nitro Express blasting, early in the morining. HA HA. I could go no like that for hours.
Just found out that his Grandfather was a sheriiff in Hardin, Missouri. And his uncle, or Great Uncle, was the ranch forman for Theodore Roosevelt. His name was Merrifield. That is the reason Elmer turned out like he did. He had influences on him from both sides of the family.
I thought Elmers shooes were sixe 5. THat is what was said when he died in an obiturary,printed in a gun mag. No big deal, no one alive can ever expect to fill them. Though I am trying everyday.

Just almost finished a good read. http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/81477/1. I believe it is Ken Howell talking about Elmer and Jack O Connor. Very interesting. Lets people know what kind of a man Elmer was. I wish I hadn't wasted my time when I was young on girls and cars. I could have had some good guns and memories. I could have easily gone to visit Elmer, being single and working at a good job. What a waste youth is. At least my son is doing better than I did. He is meeting the people, met Jeff Cooper last time the NRA was in Pittsburgh. And he has the beginnings of a fine gun collection. That and he is ranked EXPERT shooting the 45 and 9 mm by the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania.

a picture of what a Sharps rifle can do to a fiberglass pole at 200 yards. Yes I was aining at it. Got it on the first shot. Ht it first at 100, then at 200. working on 3 and ran out of ammo. 300 is a real challenge.

 

While I am curious as to why a pole for a target, I do agree it is good shooting. A picture of that fine rifle would be nice too. Now as long as I have your attention, I want to know if I have missed something somewhere in all your writings about sixguns. I am curious as to why You (Elmer) never paid much attention to cylinder throats or barrel forcing cones when you worked up loads. Today a sixgun isn't considered even functional unless the throats are precisely reamed to the correct size and the barrel isn't coned to 11 degrees. I seem to remember you stating that the old Colts often shot very respectably, even with 454-455 throats and rough forcing cones as long as the bore was the right size for that caliber. In one article it was stated that all size bullets, cast or jacketed, shot equally as well as long as the correct load was worked up. So let's hear some thoughts on this. Chris

First off, the target was in front of the pole. The pole was holding up the target in a rather haphazard manner,(poked though a hole) Worked though. Aim was taken on the pole and the center of the target ( a peice of 1't gecardboard with a black circle sticker in the center of it.)  Could not see the sticker at 2000 yards, just the white cardboard. I will post picts of the Sharps later. It is now my favorite rifle.
All the bro ha ha about forcing cone angles, ect is picking fly shit out of pepper. Gunsmiths are making money selling people technology, rather than more ammo for practice. The old Smiths, and Colts had the correct solution as far a forcing cones. Long enough to guide the bullet into the rifling gently as possible, and align with the cylinder. Period. Put a bullet into the rear of the barrel on an old Smith, or Colt. It takes almost the entire length of the bullet before it hits the rifling.  Ruger shortened this angle, as a cost cutting measure.Remember people buy Rugers because they are cheaper than a Smith or Colt. So they have to be made cheaper. You get what you pay for. Most of the time.
Yes if you spend enough time, money and energy on reloads, and working up a good one for your gun, you will probibly come up with a resonable accurate firearm combinationn. Plus you will get a lot of practice, which is more important.  cfrylinder throats are ALWAYS important. They must be 1 to 2 thou larger than the groove diameter. The bullets should be cast to be a firm fit in the cylinder throats.  The bullets should also align on the front driving band in the cylinder throat. Elmer covered this well in SIxguns, as well as his first article, in 1929 , as well as I beleive in his article "the last word".  the problems with some designs of bullets is that they do not align themseves in the cylider throats at all. This caused the bullet to wobble in the cylinder, never hitting throat square shot to shot.
He cracked a lot of forcing cones, that much I know. The old Colts were thin in that area. Freedom arms makes a removable forcing cone in the 454 Casull. so when you crack it, you can get a replacement. At least they used to do this. It was held in place by a screw, if my memory does not fail me.
Elmers No.5 was shooting a 2 inch group, one handed at 15 yards. He loved it. Got the job done he wanted.  Now a days we complain if we don't get that at 50 yards. but then we are shooting off a bench, or 2 handed, or both.  So the answer to your question is  1  gunsmiths are taking advantage of yuppies that think they can become expert shots if they spend enough money.  2. Practice with what you have, and learn to use it.  3 zzbe realistic in your needs of accuracy. If your gun is to shoot groundhogs at 200 yards, then practice with sizing the bullets, different molds, powders, primers and sixing dies, until you get as close to perfection as you can, Then take all this info to someone like Hamilton Bowen, or myself, and have us tighten up the gun, align the cylinder better and firmer, make your sights more solid in the frame, and then see what kind of groups it will make.  4. Don,t expect a Ruger to shoot as well as a Freedom Arms.  Spend the money and get the Freedom Arms, and save on gunsmith fees. Then practice Practice Practice. When you hit about 5000 rounds with the gun, you should be pretty good. 
 
Hope this answered your questions.

Typo Gunny? If you are shooting consistency at 2000 yards with that Sharps I surely take my hat off to you... Now back to sixguns. I think you may be on target there also. I think we are a bit ,well, spoiled, for lack of a better word, because we have some very talented smiths who can make a sixgun shoot like a million dollars. When I bought my first sixgun I knew very little about tuning or custom work to refine the gun to its optimum capability. We bought a gun, the best one we could afford, and shot it. It wasn't until these later years in my life that I found out about reaming and boring etc to make a gun seem like a custom masterpiece. I also know that I am probably missing out on some fine shooting but I will probably never change, old dog syndrome. Chris

Yes it was 200 yards. I am not up to the Quigley class yet.(what a crock of crap in that movie. Loved the movie, hated the accuracy b.s., would love to be able to fire a single action that fast)
I guess you mean that you missed out by not shooting enough rounds, and spending your money on reaming and boring ect.  Never to late to begin. you get better with every shot. 
Yes the 44 Special is the finest cartridge ever made. Mild in the factory form, good for target use. Wicked and vicous in its handloaded max. Ruger is selling every one they make, as soon as they leave the shipping dock. Boosted the sale of Blackhawks tremendously. All without the help of the Gun writers for the most part. People want a 44 special.  Ruger is talking about making the GP100 in 44 special now. Maybe a 5 shot. Can't wait.
GOD I LOVE MY SHARPS RIFLE. THANK YOU CHRISTIAN SHARPS.

Elmer, What was the parent case that Pop Eimer used to make his .40 Eimer Special??? What were your feelings on a .41 caliber revolver cartridge??

I purchased a copy of Keith's Letters...In it I saw reference to a revolver Elmer owned that was TR's..It shows the backstrap of the weapon with TR's name ingraved in it..in the letters somewhere Elmer mentions shooting the Roosevelt .44 spl...I have read much of Keith's work starting in the 50's until the present...but this is the only mention I find of this sixgun...any more info. on it???????

It was found in a pawn shop back east. Elmer was always looking for guns to take apart and improve on. This gun, in true Elmer fashion was taken apart, improved upon and used. I know this from talking to Elmer's son Ted about it. To me it would be like finding Billy the Kids rifle and taking it hunting. Don't think I'd do it but someone else may?  Hope that helped a little.

Thanks for the info...It kind of surprised me, Elmer didn't mention this six gun more often...but it was a great read anyway.....

He was a person that had to have a use for something otherwise it wasn't worth having. I'm still fighting with myself for having an unfired Keith commemorative. He'd say "shoot it, doing you no good in the case"......er something like that.

I can shoot that Keith 44 for you Don, no problem whatsoever! You bring it on by and we'll wring it out real good. Chris

Elmers Grandfather was the head foreman for Theodore Roosevelts ranch, I believe in Montaa (I amy be wrong in the location. ) That gun was handed down in the family. I hope Ted has it, and hands it down to Gregor, if he is the type of person that can own guns.

I believe TR's ranch was in what is now North Dakota. Not sure if he had a ranch in Montana, at that time there probably was not a lot of distinction as to the exact locale one was in but he did a bit of hunting in Montana and in Yellowstone. He wrote some books on his ranching days and they are somewhat interesting but a little dragged out in detail. He was a naturalist as well as a hunter with some strong views on the west and the prairies. Chris

Absoulutly correct. Anyway, that is how he came upon owning T.R.s single action revolver. Doubt if he shot it much, but shows a linage with his penchant for carved Ivory stocks on his favorite guns. Notice he did not have ivory on his Redhawk (ha,Ha, digging up some contriversy). I wish I could get a set of Ivory, or even Ivoryex grips carved with a steers head for my 629. Have a set on my 357 Blackhawk, by Navy arms. Not real, but serves the purpose of positining my hand properly on the grip shot to shot.

Just for the sake of keeping the story correct, how sure are you of your version compared to mine?  How about a friendly wager? The wager will be paid to Al to donate to the NRA in Elmer's name. You name the denomination to be donated.

Since he won't bite here's the story about Teddy Roosevelt's gun. As I said the story was told to me by Ted when I asked him and then found the story in print. It goes like this, and if I am telling you things you already know, bear with me so I can set up the story for those that may not know. Elmer had Harold Croft come visit him in Durkee, Ore for a months stay. When Harold got home to Philladelphia he found a Colt SAA in a pawnshop for 5 dollars and sent it to Elmer(not handed down). Also remember at this time Elmer was looking for guns to experiment with and convert to 44 specials and 45 lc. Elmer reffered to the gun as a rusty, dirty mess and started the cleaning process when he saw "Teddy Roosevelt" and "North Dakota" (not minnesota) on the grip frame. Elmer who he is, didn't stop because of the name on the gun he modified it sorta heavily. Elmer then added "Aug 23 1928" and" Keith Long Range Colt" to the left side of the frame. This gun also had rosewood stocks( not the ivory as said earlier). And for a time was his favorite long range revolver and shot it quite a bit. The gun can still be seen in the museum at Cabelas, if you haven't been there you owe it to yourself to go, wear a bib as druelling can be embarrassing. And should anybody wish to verify my story it would be easy to do as there was a write up on the Elmer Keith museum by Brian Pearce in the Nov. 2008 edition of Handloader Magazine. But to Gunsmith's credit, two of the Merrifields worked at T.R.s ranch.

Thanks..I love this type of information...I have been to the museum several times over the years..I did not realize the TR gun was there...I sort of wish they could change the display some to show his other rifles, shotguns, and revolvers..but it is still a great visit..not sure when I will hit that area again, but I am sure I will stop in when I am there..I am not sure if I have the Nov. 08 Handloader or not..since the present editior took over, I haven't kept up with the magazine...Brian offeres some great reads, but some of the rest don't offer much to me...anyway...thanks for the new information...I just told my gal, I must get all my Elmer Keith letters, magazine articles, and books in one spot..they are scattered all over the house right now...again thanks...WCH

When you get there again it'll be pointing to the left and the label says"Colt SAA .44 special 5 1/2"" It had the hammer screw stud installed and the three leaf folding rear sight. Other than that it isn't labelled as being T.R.'s. Maybe next time I go I'll take some masking tape and a sharpie and do it myself. They won't mind.  Clean up the books and magazines unless you want to end up like the rest of us......well, me anyway.

Hey, I remember looking at that 6 gun..Have seen it in other articles as well...Funny he never mentioned more about it being TR's, but guess that isn't all that important...Saw Elmer several times in the 70's..he certainly was a gracious person...

I found this video on You Tube of course but pay particular attention to the comments on hand work versus machine work, this must be why Colt's are better than S&W's???????Just funnin ya'll, Chris
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psOgqSIHPEM

Two parter.
1. Thoughts on powder coated cast bullets?

2. Thoughts on the modern heavy loads for .45 Colt in Ruger  SA revolvers? 

Dear Plain, Not sure what you are talking about concerning "powder coated cast bullets"?  If your speaking of traditional powder coating, I bet they'd be pretty to look at but that's all. Are you talking about a tumble lube process? Graphite? If so, Chris 3755 has some experience with that I think.  Heavy loads for .45 colt in a Ruger is something that's very common and done with good success. Lyman and Speer have a special section for those loads. Many handloaders are using 300 grain+ bullets in their Rugers and Contenders. I don't shoot anything heavier in my 45's that 270 grain. I'm sure it won't take long for somebody to pipe up, good luck.  I totally forgot about this thread......

Yes, EMK, I have used several types of coated bullets. My first experience was years ago with some 35 caliber rifle bullets with a "Secret" graphite type coating of some kind by a manufacturer that I can't remember the name of now but they were not much better or worse than the regular jacketed bullets with the exception of the mess handling them to reload with. I gave them up after that first box and never bothered with them in the rifle again. With the handgun I am now using the Hornady .454. dia. coated bullet in my .45 New Frontier and they too are a bit slippery when reloading but they are shooting fine and they were one of the easier to get and cost effective bullet in the .454 diameter. I recommend them in a gun with oversize cylinder throats, like my Colt. Whether they would help in a Ruger I don't know, guess it would depend on the cylinder. Now as to whether it is beneficial to coat your own or buying coated instead of regular bullets I don't see the effort or cost as being worth it over regular lube type but that's just my opinion.Hope this helps answer your question. Chris S

Ok. On the question of coated bullets. That has been an on and off fad
for many years. Back in 1923 fellows put grease on there national match
rounds to eliminate fouling. It caused the back thust pressures to
increase so high,from lack of friction
between the case and chamber,that a few guns came apart.
If the graphite,moly or what ever gets on the chamber walls it can cause
the same problem. S@W made the nyloc bullets to eliminate fouling. All
it did was spread nylon in the bore. And poor accuracy.
Size your bullets 431. 432 use a good graphite impregnated lube. No gas
checks. Then you will have no leading problems. If using. Jacketed
bullets make sure the bullet is a tight fit in the chamber. I have seen
some 428. 429. You will get copper fouling and
poor accuracy.  Also do not use a fast burning powder as the gas front
will melt the base causing fouling. Use unique as the fastest and keep
your pressures about 15000 . If you want to go faster use 2400. It burns
cooler and has a balance point around 30000.

Looks like Gunsmith is sending secret messages again. I'm going to get my special decoder ring. Be back soon.

 and I'll post up for you. 
EMK, you don't need a decoder ring, Gunny is just having trouble using his phone to post. Just talked to him little bit ago. 

I understand, I have a new phone and my daughter was playing with it and said I had 117 voicemails. I had no clue how to retrieve them. And this is how a topic gets changed to cell phone problems.